U66 Preview 2: Tumble Changes

Tonquin

Tonquin

of Lightning Hammer fame!
Howdy all! With Update 66 we're going to be adjusting the gameplay flow and mechanical benefits of Tumbling.

Design Philosophy​

So, to begin - Tumble was never meant to replace your standard methods of locomotion. Tumble is instead meant to allow characters to react to telegraphed damage or traps to escape from certain doom. However, thanks to our efforts to making tumbling more reactive and more fun, we inadvertently introduced specific scenarios in which a character tumbling can generate a pretty impressive (if unintended) amount of land speed.

Our first attempt at fixing this problem was to simply remove the experimental controls, locking players to the old Tumble flow. That being said, after noodling on it as a team, we realized that while this might solve the locomotion problem, it made tumbling less reactive AND didn't do anything to actually help Tumble be relevant in combat. To that end, we think we've come up with a solution that preserves the active nature of Tumble, prevents players from using it to generate too much speed, AND lets them use it to prevent damage on their own terms.

Tumble Charges​

First thing's first - Experimental Tumble Controls has been re-enabled for this preview. Assuming nothing seriously explodes, we expect it to stay enabled going forward.

Tumbling is now limited by charges. If you don't have at least one Tumble charge, you cannot tumble. By default, you have 2 maximum Tumble charges, and one Tumble charge returns every 8 seconds.

Certain feats and abilities can boost your maximum Tumble charges and quicken their rate of return. For this preview, the following abilities have been adjusted:
  • Thief-Acrobat's 3rd core, Tumbler, now grants +1 maximum Tumble charge.
  • The Mobility feat now grants +1 maximum Tumble charge.
You may view your Tumble charges by holding your Block key, default left shift. Each green pip displayed represents one Tumble charge.

Tumble Benefits​

Tumble now grants you defensive benefits during part of the tumble animation. These bonuses only apply if you are actually tumbling - the shuffle half-step won't trigger these bonuses.

For this preview, Tumbling now grants the following:
  • 95% uncapped dodge for 1 second.
  • A bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to your Tumble skill for 1 second.
Note that these bonuses apply to you from the moment you begin your Tumble, regardless of how long the animation takes to complete.

We hope very much that these changes further encourage players to actively tumble to dodge large attacks or dangerous traps, and look forward to your passionate feedback!
 
droid327

droid327

Well-known member
I'm glad you found a middle ground, though I still think the "land speed" it could achieve, if unintended, was actually positive

I hope, once you establish Tumble back to what you think it should be as a mechanic, that you'll reconsider adding in some other "turbo button" mechanic to allow you to achieve out-of-combat move speeds equivalent to what Tumble provided, as a QOL mechanic available to every player

I think 2 charges @ 8 secs might be a bit restrictive, at first. Dont see why you couldnt be a bit more liberal with them, like 4 @ 6 secs or something
 
Oliphant

Oliphant

Well-known member
Love the idea of some active defense that everyone can use, with some frequency gating. Many great games have defense moves that actually do stuff. Regarding the previous speed movement tumbling, as someone that did not love it, especially when in-lieu of giving out more speed to everyone regardless of the choice to go full Hedgehog, I did not find people were constantly abusing it, mainly only in farming situations or catching up to party.
 
P

PurpleSerpent

Monster Hunter of Moderate Renown
Tonquin said:
Howdy all! With Update 66 we're going to be adjusting the gameplay flow and mechanical benefits of Tumbling.

Design Philosophy​

So, to begin - Tumble was never meant to replace your standard methods of locomotion. Tumble is instead meant to allow characters to react to telegraphed damage or traps to escape from certain doom. However, thanks to our efforts to making tumbling more reactive and more fun, we inadvertently introduced specific scenarios in which a character tumbling can generate a pretty impressive (if unintended) amount of land speed.

Our first attempt at fixing this problem was to simply remove the experimental controls, locking players to the old Tumble flow. That being said, after noodling on it as a team, we realized that while this might solve the locomotion problem, it made tumbling less reactive AND didn't do anything to actually help Tumble be relevant in combat. To that end, we think we've come up with a solution that preserves the active nature of Tumble, prevents players from using it to generate too much speed, AND lets them use it to prevent damage on their own terms.

Tumble Charges​

First thing's first - Experimental Tumble Controls has been re-enabled for this preview. Assuming nothing seriously explodes, we expect it to stay enabled going forward.

Tumbling is now limited by charges. If you don't have at least one Tumble charge, you cannot tumble. By default, you have 2 maximum Tumble charges, and one Tumble charge returns every 8 seconds.

Certain feats and abilities can boost your maximum Tumble charges and quicken their rate of return. For this preview, the following abilities have been adjusted:
  • Thief-Acrobat's 3rd core, Tumbler, now grants +1 maximum Tumble charge.
  • The Mobility feat now grants +1 maximum Tumble charge.
You may view your Tumble charges by holding your Block key, default left shift. Each green pip displayed represents one Tumble charge.

Tumble Benefits​

Tumble now grants you defensive benefits during part of the tumble animation. These bonuses only apply if you are actually tumbling - the shuffle half-step won't trigger these bonuses.

For this preview, Tumbling now grants the following:
  • 95% uncapped dodge for 1 second.
  • A bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to your Tumble skill for 1 second.
Note that these bonuses apply to you from the moment you begin your Tumble, regardless of how long the animation takes to complete.

We hope very much that these changes further encourage players to actively tumble to dodge large attacks or dangerous traps, and look forward to your passionate feedback!
Click to expand...
I'm going to have to think about when to tumble a bit more, then. Although the defensive benefits do look interesting...
 
Epicsoul

Epicsoul

Well-known member
I love the idea. Can I suggest adding +1 charge to a monk enhancement? Perhaps Shintao's Tier 2 Conditioning also grants +1 maximum tumble charges on the third rank? The third rank of Ninja Spy's Agility could also be an option. Monk seems like a prime candidate to get a +1.
 
Yamani

Yamani

Tyrannical Overlord
1. Is there a way to tell how many charges you have left? Kind of like if I put tumble onto my hotbar just to see the charge count.
2. Can we suggest other areas to get a +1 charges? For example Wood Elf: wild step, Tabaxi Trailblazer(agility?), or the acrobatic enhancement.
 
Balegdah

Balegdah

Active member
Lotoc said:
I feel thief acrobat could stand to have a little more juice to it because it kind of is the tumble tree.
But overall this looks like a very solid change.
Click to expand...
Would be cool if thief acro tree reduced the tumble skill threshhold needed to preform the better tumble animations, too
or the cores would add a flat +1/2/3/4/5 to tumble
 
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