Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh

[Lotoc]

There's main 3 uses for EA healing
1) non-healers healing others
2) self healing
3) healers using it
All 3 are things players currently use it for and all are relevant to the discussion. There's no need to gatekeep the discussion by saying only one of them matters; they all matter to different players.

Not sure if its me you're adressing with this but I was responding to someone who thinks its all about the mantle itself proccing extra healing on a heal being cast, not the passive healing aura for taking an upgrade to the mantle which is being removed.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Didn't Cordovan literally respond to you yesterday telling you they're still working on the next preview and "perhaps next week"?

They are just letting us get out the last bit of steam.

It's been said just venting our grievances does a lot to diminish our anger at any nerfs.

JUST WATCH for next week's Preview 2.

Nothing will change. Nothing fundamentally will change.

 

[rabidfox]

Not sure if its me you're adressing with this but I was responding to someone who thinks its all about the mantle itself proccing extra healing on a heal being cast, not the passive healing aura for taking an upgrade to the mantle which is being removed.

Not directed at you (or any specific other person). Just in response to a bunch of posts in general saying it's not a healer tree; I use it on my healer. Or those who say self healing isn't relevant, I've also used it to self-heal. And I've used it to toss out heals on non-healers too. It's a very versatile tree for anyone who wants healing.

 

[CBDunk]

My guess that I made earlier is that the problem is people using overlapping EA auras in raids rendering those raids a cake walk.

If that is the case, then you might be able to propose an alternate solution by having the EA aura in addition to applying a healing also apply a 5.5 second timer that makes the character that was healed immune to healing from any other healing auras.

Exactly my point.

IF we knew that were the 'issue'... then we could provide suggestions for resolving it. The change you propose, basically only being able to benefit from one EA healing aura at a time, wouldn't bother solo players at all. Indeed, I don't think it would bother most raiding players either, as you frequently find dedicated (i.e. better) healers in those. It might fix the 'problem' with relatively little pushback.

...but we DON'T know if that is what the devs are concerned about.

So we really have no idea if that, or any other, suggestion is even worth making. It might also be completely irrelevant to their concern.

We're just fumbling around in the dark, and for some reason they really really do NOT want to 'turn the lights on'.

 

[Scrag]

There's main 3 uses for EA healing
1) non-healers healing others
2) self healing
3) healers using it
All 3 are things players currently use it for and all are relevant to the discussion. There's no need to gatekeep the discussion by saying only one of them matters; they all matter to different players.

A thought: Why is it preferred over many other trees, and oddly enough apparently melee trees for melee people?

I struggle to understand why for a fighter that a straight fightery tree like LD or Fury are considered secondary to... EA. Shouldn't fightery trees be worth more to invest in, for a fightery type, than EA? That smacks of unintended use. That is not exactly a bad thing, but implies that the other "intended" uses of other trees is lacking.

 

[Ahpuch]

Exactly my point.

IF we knew that were the 'issue'... then we could provide suggestions for resolving it. The change you propose, basically only being able to benefit from one EA healing aura at a time, wouldn't bother solo players at all. Indeed, I don't think it would bother most raiding players either, as you frequently find dedicated (i.e. better) healers in those. It might fix the 'problem' with relatively little pushback.

...but we DON'T know if that is what the devs are concerned about.

So we really have no idea if that, or any other, suggestion is even worth making. It might also be completely irrelevant to their concern.

We're just fumbling around in the dark, and for some reason they really really do NOT want to 'turn the lights on'.

Previous updates have yielded similar feedback that providing the rational for the change would help us to give useful feedback. For some reason the devs have continued to decide that informing players of the rationale is not what they want.

 

[CBDunk]

A thought: Why is it preferred over many other trees, and oddly enough apparently melee trees for melee people?

Look at any list of suggestions for raiding or joining PUGs and high on the list you will likely find; 'have self healing. do not expect others to heal you'.

Holy Presence currently fits that need pretty well for a vast diversity of builds (melee, ranged, casters w/o other healing, et cetera).

Then add in all the 'small group' (~1 to 3 players) players who don't have a dedicated healer, people who want a consistently solid build rather than the ability to manually trigger lots of 'burst' options, and anyone else who wants consistent healing. Together it likely adds up to one of the most widely used abilities in the game.

About the only thing the devs have told us is that they apparently feel such playstyles are "really not good". It will be interesting to see if they still feel that way when all of them are gone.

 

[Itkovian]

@Tonquin
Hey Tonquin, is there any chance we can sneak in a fix for Cleric Hirelings who will attempt to heal undead monsters summoned by the Create Undead spell, there by killing them and draining their entire mana pool.

As a new player I was super exited to get this spell, but as a player who also likes to play with a Cleric Hireling quickly realized I could not use this spell which made me sad.

Notably as a Pale Master, when my Undead Knight is damaged, my Cleric Hireling will not try to heal it. When a summoned monster from Create Undead becomes damaged the Cleric Hireling will attempt to heal it and of course damages it instead and will continue undead they run out of mana or kill the summon.

Thank you I know you are aware of this interaction, and that it is not in scope for this update but I wanted to throw this out there incase a developer wants to earn some overtime and earn my near infinite gratitude.

 

[Jeronimo]

Look at any list of suggestions for raiding or joining PUGs and high on the list you will likely find; 'have self healing. do not expect others to heal you'.

Holy Presence currently fits that need pretty well for a vast diversity of builds (melee, ranged, casters w/o other healing, et cetera).

Then add in all the 'small group' (~1 to 3 players) players who don't have a dedicated healer, people who want a consistently solid build rather than the ability to manually trigger lots of 'burst' options, and anyone else who wants consistent healing. Together it likely adds up to one of the most widely used abilities in the game.

About the only thing the devs have told us is that they apparently feel such playstyles are "really not good". It will be interesting to see if they still feel that way when all of them are gone.

This! ^^^

As of now, you can have a LH raid with a mix of classes, without a healer... and you can still manage to complete it with ease.... while having fun doing so. This is one of the reasons why the EA aura was added to begin with.
The alternative would be to have one or two babysitting healers tending to the party, giving the same result. However, there might be a couple of players who didn't have fun, and to assemble that kind of party via LFM would take forever on a low population server.
The devs are shooting themselves in the foot without realizing it (or rather the players' feet).

 

[rabidfox]

This! ^^^

As of now, you can have a LH raid with a mix of classes, without a healer... and you can still manage to complete it with ease.... while having fun doing so. This is one of the reasons why the EA aura was added to begin with.
The alternative would be to have one or two babysitting healers tending to the party, giving the same result. However, there might be a couple of players who didn't have fun, and to assemble that kind of party via LFM would take forever on a low population server.
The devs are shooting themselves in the foot without realizing it (or rather the players' feet).

Should still be able to do that with the changes (more or less); just have to cast the occasional healing ability to keep the barrier up. I would assume if someone is filling in the healer role in a raid (or quest) that they're tossing out healing pillars and mass cures too.

 

[Jeronimo]

Should still be able to do that with the changes (more or less); just have to cast the occasional healing ability to keep the barrier up. I would assume if someone is filling in the healer role in a raid (or quest) that they're tossing out healing pillars and mass cures too.

True... it might work, but it will be a different kind of game play... and you still need someone to babysit in hectic situations. I mean there are some people who enjoys that as well, but it used to be difficult to find them. I suppose that time will tell... I still don't see the point of removing/changing the aura as it is today as it promotes fun and easier grouping.

 

[Viking707]

Another option is to make the EA healing aura a "Greater of" tick instead of "in addition to" tick. Sort of how multiple Blade Barrier spells don't create multiple damage ticks.

I'd encourage the Devs to stay with a passive scenario. Not one that requires button pushing, percentage chances, or prerequisite actions. What may seem easy for the "Reaper/Raid" crowd is not always easy for the casual player. Less is more!

 

[l_remmie]

I will grumblingly keep playing, although a bit less, despite all this crap. But i will NEVER EVER go back to waiting for a cleric/rogue to actually play the game. Even with 10 times the population that was a pain in the behind.

EA lets anyone with some devotion/lore to pick the mantle and do some healing for LN/LH raids. It simply lets me play with friends instead of waiting for healers/tanks who are never online because i live in Europe.

 

[Viking707]

On a related note, I'd say this game needs more octagons and less squares. Especially as we move towards level 40.

 

[The Narc]

A thought: Why is it preferred over many other trees, and oddly enough apparently melee trees for melee people?

I struggle to understand why for a fighter that a straight fightery tree like LD or Fury are considered secondary to... EA. Shouldn't fightery trees be worth more to invest in, for a fightery type, than EA? That smacks of unintended use. That is not exactly a bad thing, but implies that the other "intended" uses of other trees is lacking.

You nailed it!!!

 

[Matuse]

On a related note, I'd say this game needs more octagons and less squares. Especially as we more towards level 40.

Yes, emphatically this.

 

[Matuse]

A thought: Why is it preferred over many other trees, and oddly enough apparently melee trees for melee people?

I struggle to understand why for a fighter that a straight fightery tree like LD or Fury are considered secondary to... EA. Shouldn't fightery trees be worth more to invest in, for a fightery type, than EA? That smacks of unintended use. That is not exactly a bad thing, but implies that the other "intended" uses of other trees is lacking.

Because hirelings can't cut it, healers are hard to find, the other healing effects are HoTs and not super strong, many melees won't have a lot of spellpoints to cast things like crazy, and finding another player to do healing is often extremely difficult, all adding up to "It's either massively gimp my damage by taking EA so I can avoid being a soulstone, or log off and play another game".

Nobody takes EA because it's good damage. It's not. If a melee wants a mantle that does damage, then you can do Primal Avatar or you can do Fatesinger.

 

[glass_jaws]

A thought: Why is it preferred over many other trees, and oddly enough apparently melee trees for melee people?

I struggle to understand why for a fighter that a straight fightery tree like LD or Fury are considered secondary to... EA. Shouldn't fightery trees be worth more to invest in, for a fightery type, than EA? That smacks of unintended use. That is not exactly a bad thing, but implies that the other "intended" uses of other trees is lacking.

I wouldn't call it unintended use at all. It does exactly what it was intended to do. Unexpected use maybe. That said, there is an opportunity cost for everything. Everyone has a different cost/benefit ratio in their head. The fighter in this case is giving up dps, etc from another tree. The system is designed to allow flexibility, so the fighter is branching out instead of specializing here.

I'm not arguing either way on this change in this. Maybe the other trees should be more interesting. Maybe this needs to come down. I just don't like labeling it as "unintended use" because people are using it exactly as the ability was created.

 

[CBDunk]

I will grumblingly keep playing, although a bit less, despite all this crap. But i will NEVER EVER go back to waiting for a cleric/rogue to actually play the game.

Which brings up another issue. There are very few 'ability types' in this game which are restricted to just certain classes. The 'Rune Arm Use' feat was originally Artificer only... but now ANY heroic class/combo can get it via the Macrotechnic tree. Once upon a time, 'Turn Undead' was limited to Clerics and Paladins... now ANY heroic class/combo can get it via the Exalted Angel tree. Smite Evil, rage, healing, crowd control, AoE damage, various kinds of spell effects... all now have ways for virtually any build to get some form of them.

This is a very GOOD thing. It allows vastly more flexibility in character design and grouping. The spread of healing through various EDs is probably the biggest thing making it easy to group right now. Changes to Holy Presence could be a significant problem there.

However, AFTER healing the second most 'widely needed' ability is probably the 'Disable Device' skill... and yet STILL the only way to get that is to take at least one level in one of the heroic classes that grant it. Which makes it impossible for 'designated trappers' to ever get level 20 capstone abilities for other classes.

PLEASE add some way for this ability to be gained outside of class levels. A Shadowdancer ED ability. Half-elf dilettante rogue option. Rogue / Artificer (or archetype thereof) past life option. SOMETHING.

The easier it is to find characters able to handle healing and trapping duties the easier it is to form groups. It's that simple. Tanks, DPS, CC, ranged... there have ALWAYS been lots of options to choose from. The need for the dedicated healer has largely been solved (unless that's the 'problem' behind the EA change)... but unless your group all know how to avoid every trap (or can just run through them at the difficulty you are playing) you still need a trapper. More options there would be greatly appreciated.

On a related note, I'd say this game needs more octagons and less squares. Especially as we more towards level 40.

Ditto. Given the choice between 'Passive: +10 Zargleflex' and 'Active: +45 Zargleflex for 10 seconds' I'll take the passive option nearly every time. On most of my builds I've got complete hotbars of options, all mapped to different keystrokes, which I use on a fairly regular basis... and that's while doing everything I can to keep such 'active' options to a minimum. It's out of control.

 

[Scrag]

Nobody takes EA because it's good damage. It's not. If a melee wants a mantle that does damage, then you can do Primal Avatar or you can do Fatesinger.

And this, also, does not strike you as odd?

Neither of those are Fury or Dreadnought. As a melee, I should... avoid the clearly marked and labeled melee trees?