What prevents a competitive summons build in DDO?

[Elves United]

Yes, the entire point I'm making is that summons will never perform at the player character level, and thus, summons are pretty useless. Arti, druid and dark hunter pets can be more useful than regular summons, but not by much. And, as you said, it would slow down player speed to try to use summons effectively every fight.

I've done the Kobold Assault using summons trick ( thought I could get some favor and make a sandwich ) The AI on caster summons is worse than enemy monsters. The fire elemental will attack and just stand there for several seconds before attacking again. Melee summons are somewhat better but against more difficult content they will not be killing much at all.

But I do occassionally use summons. Not so often during fights but between them. As bags of hp. They won't get any kills but they'll distract the enemy for a short time so you can.

 

[Arkat]

What prevents a competitive summons build in DDO?​

The fact that, from the beginning, DDO was intended to be played with multiple players in your party and not as a solo-play game.

 

[Scrag]

Coming from CoH, where you have the whole mastermind archetype that does nothing but use cool and awesome pets, but here, you get like, one pet as mentioned above. That isn't worth spending anything on summon augments imo.

 

[Fizban]

Yes, the entire point I'm making is that summons will never perform at the player character level, and thus, summons are pretty useless. Arti, druid and dark hunter pets can be more useful than regular summons, but not by much. And, as you said, it would slow down player speed to try to use summons effectively every fight.

Summoned/pets can't be used or be effective in a fast paced (xerging) party quests is true. However, at times and I like to slow down and run quests for all optionals and even to explore all conrers of a quest. Even for quests that I have run 100's of times. Summoned/pets are pretty effective in this scenario.

 

[Onyxia2016]

I find the Pale Masters skeletal knight actually does well with fast paced game play.
Now imagine a "Summoner" class, archetype, or whatever that can buff the hell out of there version.
Boosting their intimidate, PRR, MRR and resistances.

 

[Konsumer]

I lost six hours today playing a necromancer in Diablo IV. Looked at the clock and said, it's what time now? Haven't done that in a while and it got me thinking, what is stopping DDO from having a competitive, and more importantly, fun, summons build? DDO has much of the infrastructure already in place, there are items that enhance summons, there are feats that support it, there are epic destinies that enhance summons, and a full-blown summoner class archetype is just there begging to be developed.

A robust summoning class would need the capability of bringing into thrall multiple minions. Then, we would have to consider a player who might be able to summon other allies already in the game (such as hirelings, gold seal hirelings, werewolves, succubi, etc). This might quickly get the hamsters burning up the wheel and could contribute to lag. Testing would need to be done to make this wouldn't overwhelm instances.

Another factor some might raise is game balance. There is a perception among some that completing quests with your thralled army isn't doing it "the right way." I'm not sure how summons would provide any advantage when you drilled down into it. Would your minions clear a room any faster than a Sorcerer or Blight Caster? Greater Shout is still going to melt mobs just as fast and the bard will be racing along far faster than a summoner can keep up. A summoner won't be a game breaker, just a different way to quest.

Adding a summoner archetype would provide a new type of gameplay that would be incredibly popular among both veteran players who want to try something different and new players who want to solo. If DDO does expand into Planescape, this would be an ideal time to introduce summoners. Summoners could either exist as a Sorcerer archetype, or could be built out as a full class with different summons possible depending on thematic lore much like different pacts with Warlocks gives different abilities, feats, and SLAs.

Many (most) of the casting classes now feel the same. Draconic AOE blasting. The delivery method and primary casting stat is a coat of paint over multiple classes that mostly do the same thing. Let's shake it up! Bring the summoner into DDO.

Unless you are playing casual to hard, Hires are weak, broken, and stupid. They haven't been updated properly since world war 2. Pets and Hires have more bugs than a house with termites. Ever had a wolf pet run up to a monster and have a staring contest while getting their head bashed in? That's the hire/pet AI right now.

 

[Mordenkainen]

When I think "summoner" I see the player taking direct control over the summoned while the actual character is stuck unmoving and concentrating/casting.

Your job is to effectively use your summons to protect your character and attack at the same time.

A very unique type of gameplay from any other class.

 

[Arcanaverse]

I'd say... D&D design + Power Scaling with some positioning and issues with the AI throw in for good measure are the big reasons why summoner builds aren't effective.

Even in PnP summons were never meant to effectively replace your main character like in some other franchises. In PnP and DDO they're there for support. Do a little taunting, a little damage or maybe provide some utility.

So I don't think Turbine/SSG ever really means to have them become powerful, but we should still hope for useful right? That's where the scaling problem comes in. Low levels, some hirelings and summons can perform quite well and the game is quite manageable. Fight only a few enemies at a time, on normal.. even summons can feel like they're carrying their weight. As we go up the level and difficulty ladders summons, pets, hirelings, etc... just don't benefit from the power creep that players get.

Equipment, buffs, movement, enhancement trees just don't exist for summons. With a few exceptions obviously, but even those are very limited and don't come close to what is offered to the player.

Worse, especially summons, are hard capped at specific levels leaving only a few enhancements to make up the slack and those are woefully short of the goal and don't receive regular updates to keep up with the increasing difficulty.

Some players have managed to push the envelope pretty far, but even they find their limits. Add in AI issues, bugs, and positioning problems. Summoner builds as you imagine them, just don't and likely won't exist. They're designed to be largely temporary allies adding a little extra to your main character's output. Not be your class.

That being said... SSG has been doing a LOT of work lately with updating its scaling issues. So its not inconceivable that summons will get an overhaul to scale with the player one day. I'd argue they also have a lot bigger fish to fry when it comes to scaling still... but maybe some day down the line.

 

[Buddha5440]

The basic thing that makes most summons useless is that the in-game mob versions of them get buffed to CR 15-40+ and they stay at CR 1-16.

There is also the fact that the AI is horrible (ie. they die by running away from where you are to engage mobs that are not even hostile yet).

They do do a decent job of keeping the aggro even when they are a soul stones though. I have seen mobs attack them for minutes while I continue to stand and watch.

The 1 good one I can think of is the Druid's Summon VII (Djinni). This one works because it basically has 2 lives. It gets killed and turns ethereal (or whatever) and the mobs still attack it while it has X-DR to everything (ie. invulnerable). Then it comes back (which takes a few seconds) and has to be killed again. If used properly; it can be a great asset.

 

[droid327]

Server load issues

More potential to abuse afk play in ddo

AI is too dumb to trust in a fight

But I think the most central issue is power scaling. We've seen at various times in the past how runaway scaling can make some builds grossly OP until they're nerfed. We've also seen how dependent the devs are on power creep as a way to maintain engagement with the game long-term. Summoner builds are acutely prone to overcreep because every additional incremental bonus they get is multiplied by every minion they control. So they'd be difficult to keep balanced against other playstyles, and difficult to create a fun progression for leveling them - they'd tend to be super weak early on, and then godly powerful at cap with full investment

Also you run into issues of p2w since so many gold seal hires are tied to ultimate edition packs and those would be a huge boost to a summoner

 

[nenetteblackmoor]

I would like to be able to equip weapon & armor on Skeletal Knights, similar to Iron Defenders.
If possible, it would be even better if it is reflected in their appearance.

 

[Titus Ovid]

What prevents a competitive summons build in DDO?​

AI

Cheers,
Titus

 

[Archest]

since hires can only be called at the start of the quest ( excluding gold seal hires) and they take up a player slot I dont consider them a summoned character. pets are as well not summoned. ( wolf or Iron Defender) .
summoned monsters are from clickies, scrolls and spells.
beefing them up with buffs and using them to aid in defending you while you attack.
they come to your defense and follow you for the most part act when your attacked.
a summoner will learn which tool to use when he needs it for a task.
can summon all levels of monsters from scrolls or spells.
its not to fight while he watches but as an additional tool for his arsenal.

 

[Raithe]

The basic thing that makes most summons useless is that the in-game mob versions of them get buffed to CR 15-40+ and they stay at CR 1-16.

This is part of the correct answer, summoned monsters have always been inferior to even individual mobs in elite quests, and elite has been the default difficulty ever since launch (despite developer complaints that it wasn't intended to be like that). But there are several other facets to the summoning (and charming) dilemma:

1) Summons and charms can impede quest progression, and many raid mechanics misbehave with summons or charms present.
2) They would have no idea how to simultaneously kill a dragon and giant to prevent one or the other from reviving, as an example.
3) Summons and charms will suddenly expire, and at inopportune moments.
4) They lack the control bar of hirelings/pets and similarly do not progress through the dungeon without being chaperoned.

Hirelings and pets are a different thing altogether. Certain hirelings (example: Larafay Do'rret) will generally compete quite well in the kill count in appropriate level content. Other hirelings just don't have the tools to do an effective job of running a dungeon. Druid pets, on the other hand, largely just lack the monstrous gear bonuses that are required for high defensive stats in elite/reaper dungeons. Even so, they generally have enough hit points that you could keep them alive using spell points, but it begs the question why you wouldn't just use the spell points to kill the enemy instead of heal the very mediocre fighter (a thought that may apply to party members that aren't pets or hirelings as well).

While no one has really stated it bluntly, perhaps the most unappealing thing about using summons/charms/pets/hirelings is that it's boring. I generally have at least 100 different configured toolbar actions on any character I create. Dumbing that down to a single control bar or less is just less fun, period.

 

[Ellisaria]

What prevents competitive summons you ask? People have already highlighted idiotic AI and quest progression blocking, so let me add: Any time you see https://ddowiki.com/page/Dimensional_Anchor your whole build goes out the window.

 

[HoopleHead]

... besides... what's the point if it's just going to wander into a trap and die?

 

[Ellisaria]

... besides... what's the point if it's just going to wander into a trap and die?

laughing at the stupid?
Random Hire: "Careful, I sense a trap nearby." while standing in the spike trap chunking their hp
Player character: "You don't say..." *rolls eyes*

 

[Velarrn]

Know it is kinda p2w but if you have some of the perma hires its very easy to make a build where you basically slowly walk after your hireling group picking up loot. A typical endgame normal healbot hire should have 4-5k+ hp, take little damage on low reaper and be hitting for several thousand damage regularly. If it is not you need read the wiki on making your hires stronger. Also your summons and mass charms inherit all the same bonuses. Very easy to clear endgame low/mid reaper with passive playstyle. The AI improves massively with better stats e.g. your Feywild Muse will dance then beat down any reaper it sees. They will act as team and are fully capable of beating endgame bosses and surviving nearly all traps. Makes an easy first life build to farm endgame gear as needs very little to work. Not exactly a summons build but that kind of playstyle. Would work with normal hire and goldseal if stuck with reaper 1 but might have to do stuff. All that said it is easier to grab a guildie and go run through quests will be lot quicker. Join Taxes yay! If you play quiet times or don't like/struggle grouping however can play endgame to farm gear and reaper points which is kinda what they for. Have fun. Am using this kinda build for next hardcore depending on season gimic.

 

[Chai]

Take all the enhancements + feats + filigree + destiny AP which involve "summons" and all your hirelings and arty/druid dogs have huge HP totals and can farm a mid reaper dungeon with you being invis the entire time. I experimented with this a while ago and its the most relaxing gear farming build in the game. Also get yourself a legendary wolf whistle.

 

[droid327]

Take all the enhancements + feats + filigree + destiny AP which involve "summons" and all your hirelings and arty/druid dogs have huge HP totals and can farm a mid reaper dungeon with you being invis the entire time. I experimented with this a while ago and its the most relaxing gear farming build in the game. Also get yourself a legendary wolf whistle.

Is this counting on P2W gold seals, or just purely with class summons and plat hire?