Ptalon
Well-known member
As far as I can tell, they do not know how to add challenge without nerfs. :(
Will DDO increase overall difficulty?
- Thread starter Airmaiden
- Start date
Nahual
Active member
You are able to come up with your own challenges. Permadeath guilds were a thing since the beginning of DDO.
Then Hardcore comes out and most people love it.
1) Just don't spend your reaper points and do r10s.
2) If a party member dies they need to release.
3) If a party member dies you need to restart the quest.
Now, some people will point out that you want the loot/rxp, or it will feel like time wasted if you do this. My counter point
is that the end objective for this post is the challenge. It isn't the rewards.
Then Hardcore comes out and most people love it.
1) Just don't spend your reaper points and do r10s.
2) If a party member dies they need to release.
3) If a party member dies you need to restart the quest.
Now, some people will point out that you want the loot/rxp, or it will feel like time wasted if you do this. My counter point
is that the end objective for this post is the challenge. It isn't the rewards.
Ying
5000+ hours played
You obviously haven't run the Illithid quests. They're a hell of a challenge for the majority of players at level 32.
Unpopular opinion: Nerfs are necessary for balance. As a player, you can't control the nerfs. You can only control your response to them. If you think nerfs are overreaching, then vote with your wallet and attention. Those are the only two things that companies understand. Diablo 4 is a great example of that. Complaining about nerfs yet continuing to play the game tells a dev studio everything is fine.
The illithid quests are absolutely awesome! I have been meaning to make an appreciation post but haven't gotten to it. I've only run them a handful of times, but they're exactly what DDO needs more of, imo. They're varied, they're hard and they're unique.
My absolute favourite is the one with the shielding and healing monsters. It's also a great devving exercise for them to make more varied dungeon encounters with varied monster mechanics to challenge the player that doesn't involve just deleting mechanics (conceal/ethereal) by difficulty scaler. Maybe reaper-tier specific champions that do similar supportive things?
This is the stuff they need! Now imagine a variant of same style of extreme challenge that provides a very lucrative amount of experience with a level scaler like the Anniversary party or at least in heroic / epic / legendary tiers. A true challenge at very different points of character progression to sharpen your claws on.
Well, I'm excited at the potential and Illithid quests have proven that the devs have some kick in them when it comes to combat encounter design. I've heard Fire over Morgrave also has some of that, but I've never ran that in a raid group that doesn't just obliterate it and people seem to only run it mostly on LH.
Ptalon
Well-known member
Yes, those quests are challenging.
And I liked most of them.
But that also shows they don't need nerfs.
And the fun I had, was being able to use my existing powers to overcome those quests.
My first life CC worked as appropriately for example.
My defenses mattered.
Still tons of deaths the first time, but it was fun. Mostly because my character still performed as he (she actually) always had.
My saves, DCs, DPS, and HEALING!!!!!!!! were all the same.
Only the quest had changed.
That was challenging and fun.
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
This is a Quest Developer issue:
#1 It wouldn't matter if we had R11 or R12, we're getting one-shotted in R10's anyway, what would you like to happen in R11's? You get one-shotted and the game auto-deletes your character? It's not moar damage it's ....
#2 The quests are not being created with the capabilities of players in mind. I think whoever is developing these quests are more focused on generic quest deisgn(i.e. a bunch of mobs goes here because thematically it makes sense) and what makes sense for the story rather than, " OK, these guys are going to cheese this part of the quest... better remove the bookshelves and add a anti-magic zone here."
#3 Variance in mob design for specifically upper Reapers. It's these cheese-casters using mass hold and ranged attacks that are still the main problem. There needs to be mobs designed specifically to "take-out" certain players and builds, for instance a mob that is invisible and teleports directly behind a player to backstab with devestating results.
And also, mobs that are randomly positioned throughout a quest and has no set spawn point.
Perhaps a mob that will invisibly stalk a player or party throughout a quest and is non-selectable using the tab key.
Traps on top of book-shelves or "cheese spots".
And finally, quests that intentionally seperate a party and pick them off one by one.
Dumping moar HP and moar damage is NOT the answer!
#1 It wouldn't matter if we had R11 or R12, we're getting one-shotted in R10's anyway, what would you like to happen in R11's? You get one-shotted and the game auto-deletes your character? It's not moar damage it's ....
#2 The quests are not being created with the capabilities of players in mind. I think whoever is developing these quests are more focused on generic quest deisgn(i.e. a bunch of mobs goes here because thematically it makes sense) and what makes sense for the story rather than, " OK, these guys are going to cheese this part of the quest... better remove the bookshelves and add a anti-magic zone here."
#3 Variance in mob design for specifically upper Reapers. It's these cheese-casters using mass hold and ranged attacks that are still the main problem. There needs to be mobs designed specifically to "take-out" certain players and builds, for instance a mob that is invisible and teleports directly behind a player to backstab with devestating results.
And also, mobs that are randomly positioned throughout a quest and has no set spawn point.
Perhaps a mob that will invisibly stalk a player or party throughout a quest and is non-selectable using the tab key.
Traps on top of book-shelves or "cheese spots".
And finally, quests that intentionally seperate a party and pick them off one by one.
Dumping moar HP and moar damage is NOT the answer!
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Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
I admit, that the nerfs are NOT helping.
It's time to adjust something else and that is again Quest Design.
It's time to adjust something else and that is again Quest Design.
Ptalon
Well-known member
I think Reapers should initially spawn....right on top of the players!
"OH! ^%&%^!!!!"
As long as they mix things up.
Having a game where none of our powers work is not fun.
But Supermen need their Kryptonite every now and then.
(I miss the days when Warforged players ran from Rust Monsters...... /sigh.)
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
Would be interesting if a Reaper could possess another player for a few seconds and then have friendly fire turned on for that player and the party members as the Reaper unloads using the player's arsenal....
That would actually be pretty cool.
erethizon1
Well-known member
And considering the rarity of finding the Illithid Invasion chain being post above R1, it appears the players don't actually want a challenge. I run R10 for the massive RXP, not because I have any desire to be challenged. If I want a challenge I run heroics on high reaper, where the players don't have so many ways to cheese the content and overpower what was supposed to be a challenge. And once again, when I see how few people join high reaper heroics, it becomes clear the players are not looking for a challenge (but rather fast and easy RXP).
Silvorn
Active member
You can always make the game more difficult on your own. Don't use your reaper points. Start at level 1 and only use items you find levelling, not the most OP items you have stashed. Play a weird class/race combo. Make your own builds and don't spend hours min/maxing it. To many games get ruined because the devs start building them to slow down the tiny % of players who have nothing better to do than see how fast they can smash through content and then complain it is to easy.
Quite literally how I have played this game since day one and I wouldn't have it any other way.
On topic, SSG has proven that they equate hard with massive hitpoints and absurd stats. That's not hard. It's just tedious. The game barely resembles D&D anymore.
I think plenty of people keep their challenges outside LFMs. There's a bunch of "i don't want to waste their time if it goes sideways" and tempering expectations for others that takes effort. If you want challenge you'll find it on your own, no need to post it.
I don't post my strugglebus runs because I don't want to waste other ppls' time - and if someone too strong shows up they'll just breeze through it, taking away the challenge. It's very hard to manage a proper level of difficulty and expectation in a public listing because of the absolutely massive differences between different players' power levels.
It's not quite as cut and dry as your oversimplification of "cheesing and overpowering, nobody actually wants challenge lol".
The Narc
Well-known member
Yep in our guild Extreme Mortal Voyage Permadeath on Argo, we run without an entourage of ship butfs or house p buffs, no hirelings, no gear sharing, no auction house and run our groups at quest level adjusted -2 (level 4 group runs level 4 quests on elite).
Shoot we have a couple alternate rulesets just to add more fun, ie the named items only ruleset, or the naked ruleset.
PM me here if you are interested in reviving your DDO experience and getting away from the sludgery of the hamster wheel and end game grinding
This is a Quest Developer issue:
One also presumes that the new higher level legendary quests that would come in with any boost to the level cap would be harder than the ones we have now, which will no longer be the highest level quests. Yes, the existing legendary quests will be easier for a level 36 character. But that's how character and quest levels are supposed to work . . .
When you raise the level cap, you raise the power cap and introduce new challenges appropriate to that level of power. Has no-one here ever played any other MMO?
The entire premise of this thread is badly flawed.
Completely agree. Once the majority of builds get insta-gibbed if any mob connects, how much harder does it really need to be?
One also presumes that the new higher level legendary quests that would come in with any boost to the level cap would be harder than the ones we have now, which will no longer be the highest level quests. Yes, the existing legendary quests will be easier for a level 36 character. But that's how character and quest levels are supposed to work . . .
When you raise the level cap, you raise the power cap and introduce new challenges appropriate to that level of power. Has no-one here ever played any other MMO?
The entire premise of this thread is badly flawed.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
You should not be getting one-shot in r10s right now in general by normal mobs (normal mobs hit for ~5-6k pre-PRR, so with reasonable PRR, you're eating a 1.3k-2k hit). I do agree that the right way to add more challenge probably isn't bigger numbers, I really liked the extreme challenge mechanics. However, those dungeons also had substantially higher numbers in a way that made them harder—orange names in stolen power hit super hard, which is a cool mechanic to play around (enough to almost 1-shot anything but a tank, and 2-3 shot tanks, vs. the 5-10 hits a tank can take before any healing in most r10s).