U66 Preview 2: Tumble Changes
- Thread starter Tonquin
- Start date
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Que heavy armored tumbling tanks. This will become so dumb.
Ahpuch
Well-known member
I like the changes and the fact that the new tumble mechanism. is hanging around.
I would not be disappointed if the Dodge bonus (or maybe duration) was tied to the users tumble score to reward a deeper investment in tumble. 1 point maybe should not give the full bonus? Maybe 2x tumble score to a max of 95%?
I would not be disappointed if the Dodge bonus (or maybe duration) was tied to the users tumble score to reward a deeper investment in tumble. 1 point maybe should not give the full bonus? Maybe 2x tumble score to a max of 95%?
Ellisaria
Well-known member
I appreciate that the development team took the time to try to find a middle ground here. I am very excited to try out this change. I enjoy dynamic active combat and while I liked that I had a tool to keep up with more developed builds that had speed tools, I did not like the painful pinky strain it took to keep up with zergers. I hope the root of the issue (speed gap) is something that can be put on the (presumably long) to-do list because not every build can budget for 1 level of barbarian or has access to the ap needed for falconry sprint boost, racial ap for leaps/wings, etc. On HC, base Korthos expeditious boots are fine, but on live servers it really doesn't let someone keep up with someone who starts level one with a quiver of alacrity/3 scoundrel lives and 16 racial ap.
Some initial thoughts from what was outlined here:
1) If the way to view how many tumble charges you have is by holding shift and you have turned experimental tumble on, it seems like it would it be easy to accidentally use a charge if you are not standing still out of combat to "check". Without having tested it out yet, it sounds potentially awkward on paper. What about considering a UI element with a toggle to show/display for those who want it (similar to the display for network connection). A player could choose to have it (or not) and put it anywhere on their screen where it would be most convenient to see at a glance without a need to queue it to check.
2) In the preview you're adding charges to a Thief Acrobat and Mobility only for testing purposes. If this design gets kept, I hope you will add similar "+1 tumble charge" options to other trees like Monk and Shadowdancer (or basically every tree that has the option for taking skill selection that increases tumble). Perhaps for trees that say +1/2/3 to "skill", "skill", Tumble, you could add to the end "Rank 3: +1 Tumble Charge" to give it the opportunity cost of a 3 AP investment. Maybe this could be taken further to eventually look at "Dance of Wind" filigrees and add a +Charge somewhere in the set bonus.
3) I really like the 95% dodge bonus for 1s portion. Reflex boost equal to skill (not ranks) is a bonus that I need to give more thought on and play with to see how useful/practical it feels. On paper the reflex portion sounds good for traps, but less so for dodging spells that don't involve reflex saves. As it stands in this preview though, I don't see much of a reason to take tumble beyond one rank. The one rank gives you access to the skill and between various additive effects (Greater Heroism, Bard Songs, Tenser's, Etc) it is not terribly difficult to be getting the rolling dives on non-Dexterity/tumble-focused characters. To that end, I would like to add another layer of "choices" to character building with this tumble change: "For every #ranks in tumble, +1 tumble charge". This puts a hard cap on how many charges you could feasibly acquire in this fashion, but gives the option to do so at the cost of investing skill points into tumble. I think it works out when you consider that skill points and where characters spend them is an equivalent to training or specializing in a skill in the DnD setting. This way the Thief Acrobats, Ninja Spies, and Swashbucklers could be running around with 5 or 6 dodges (fitting for the class themes) while the Heavy Armor users/less skillpoint-heavy classes couldn't get that many charges and would have to "give up" other skill opportunities to get more.
Some initial thoughts from what was outlined here:
1) If the way to view how many tumble charges you have is by holding shift and you have turned experimental tumble on, it seems like it would it be easy to accidentally use a charge if you are not standing still out of combat to "check". Without having tested it out yet, it sounds potentially awkward on paper. What about considering a UI element with a toggle to show/display for those who want it (similar to the display for network connection). A player could choose to have it (or not) and put it anywhere on their screen where it would be most convenient to see at a glance without a need to queue it to check.
2) In the preview you're adding charges to a Thief Acrobat and Mobility only for testing purposes. If this design gets kept, I hope you will add similar "+1 tumble charge" options to other trees like Monk and Shadowdancer (or basically every tree that has the option for taking skill selection that increases tumble). Perhaps for trees that say +1/2/3 to "skill", "skill", Tumble, you could add to the end "Rank 3: +1 Tumble Charge" to give it the opportunity cost of a 3 AP investment. Maybe this could be taken further to eventually look at "Dance of Wind" filigrees and add a +Charge somewhere in the set bonus.
3) I really like the 95% dodge bonus for 1s portion. Reflex boost equal to skill (not ranks) is a bonus that I need to give more thought on and play with to see how useful/practical it feels. On paper the reflex portion sounds good for traps, but less so for dodging spells that don't involve reflex saves. As it stands in this preview though, I don't see much of a reason to take tumble beyond one rank. The one rank gives you access to the skill and between various additive effects (Greater Heroism, Bard Songs, Tenser's, Etc) it is not terribly difficult to be getting the rolling dives on non-Dexterity/tumble-focused characters. To that end, I would like to add another layer of "choices" to character building with this tumble change: "For every #ranks in tumble, +1 tumble charge". This puts a hard cap on how many charges you could feasibly acquire in this fashion, but gives the option to do so at the cost of investing skill points into tumble. I think it works out when you consider that skill points and where characters spend them is an equivalent to training or specializing in a skill in the DnD setting. This way the Thief Acrobats, Ninja Spies, and Swashbucklers could be running around with 5 or 6 dodges (fitting for the class themes) while the Heavy Armor users/less skillpoint-heavy classes couldn't get that many charges and would have to "give up" other skill opportunities to get more.
Epicsoul
Well-known member
I like the idea of incorporating tumble skill into the new mechanics as well.
I can imagine the capstone providing the bonus of tumble to the whole animation or even one sec after
Secondlife
Member
Yeah. Not sure how we got so disconnected from the basic idea that this is what evasion and high dodge numbers stood for on light armored builds.
The real answer here if people want to feel like they are actually dodging enemies/attacks is to tie the evasion and dodge to a key stroke and make it optional, not add more character power to the game.
This is exactly what I suggested except for having fewer charges and a slower recharge rate. However;
THIS potentially addresses that issue and encourages taking various tumble options. I'm a little concerned that there will be too few (or possibly too many) options, but we'll have to wait and see.
First suggestion would be to link some improvements to ranks of tumble itself. Maybe half a second faster recharge every 5 ranks or some such.
Um... wow? Didn't see that coming at all.
As someone who has played THE 'group trapper' consistently for 18 years now, these are fantastic and I want them. I want them now.
Realistically... they may be TOO good.
The reflex save bonus will make it possible for anyone with decent tumbling to bypass the vast majority of traps. You'll fail on a 1, and not even that if you have one of the relevant epic options. The dodge bonus is a nearly double strength improved uncanny dodge with 1/20th the duration, 1/15th the recharge rate, and ZERO cooldown. Any time you get in trouble you can do 2+ tumbles in a row to get out of there.
That said... please please please keep these. They're fine as is. Nothing can go wrong. We promise not to abuse them. Damn I want those.
Yamani
Tyrannical Overlord
I didn't even notice them at first cause they where covered by my green reaper wings...The Tumble changes are reasonable. Good job finding a common ground.
I hope the pips are a placeholder. Those are annoying to look at.
Aaabbbcccddd
Well-known member
I really like the changes, it makes tumbling more meaningful. The problems I see with the charge system is, how are bards supposed to cancel out of the bardic inspiration animation now? Being a bard in a raid group is already miserable, and now it takes even longer. This is a really niche problem but I have encountered it more than a few times myself.
Rosze
Active member
This a great point. Really just make the songs a mass cast and that’s them fixed. It just takes so long to sing to all and really it would make sense to be an area effect. Like only one of you heard my song sure I’ll seranade you all individually
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Oh yeah. It will be even worse than the current tumbling.
2 charges and 8 sec cooldown. Definitely dont add more or lower and dont add a load of ways to get more charges.
95% dodge uncapped even for 1 sec is crazy good. I think that will be used in ways you do not intend. Maybe only let that apply in light or no armor?
So, great job reducing the silly "rolling balls of super speed" but I think you added too much of a bonus defensively.
95% dodge uncapped even for 1 sec is crazy good. I think that will be used in ways you do not intend. Maybe only let that apply in light or no armor?
So, great job reducing the silly "rolling balls of super speed" but I think you added too much of a bonus defensively.
Good point. We definitely need group songs.
droid327
Well-known member
Dance of the Wind (filigree set) - 4 pc.: Whenever you tumble, you gain a 10% Action Boost Bonus to Movement Speed for 10 seconds. This may only trigger once every 30 seconds.
Any chance we can get this reduced to 10 sec CD, now that Tumble is charge based?
It'd at least let people build a "sprint dagger" swap item for an increase in runspeed out of combat. And give the filigree set a niche.
Any chance we can get this reduced to 10 sec CD, now that Tumble is charge based?
It'd at least let people build a "sprint dagger" swap item for an increase in runspeed out of combat. And give the filigree set a niche.
Rosze
Active member
It might just become a skill some people are really good at. Think it will be interesting to see how people will learn to avoid some hits better possibly. Does it feel bit like dark souls. Yes but I think in a good way.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
It will be a skill you better get good at or you will be at a massive disadvantage.