Most of the single target epic strikes will not be used due to their excessively low damage

Ooblagato

Ooblagato

Hiding in plain sight
Single target epic strike spells are not doing enough damage. This leads me to think there is a misunderstanding or misguided design philosophy on how much damage a single target level/tier 10 spell (epic strike) should be doing.

Here are the updated damage values of epic strikes
Storm catcher: 12.5 per Caster Level (save for half) + 3.5 per Caster Level cold damage every 2 seconds (3 or 4 hits for +10.5~14 damage) (unconfirmed), also reduced reflex saves (unconfirmed) (8 seconds cooldown)
Strike a cord: 6.5 Sonic damage per character level (2 second cooldown) (doubles up to 13 with tier 3)
Sun/Flame pillar: 9.5 Light/Fire damage per caster level (6 seconds cooldown)

Here are some examples of appropriate level 9 spell scaling for single target:
Thunderstroke: Deals 31.5 electric damage per caster level (3.6-9 second cooldown) (save for half)
Iceberg: Deals 31.5 cold damage per caster level (3.6-9 second cooldown) (save for half)

some AOE top tier spells (typically have longer cooldowns but similar scaling damage):
Level 9
Acid well: This area Conjuration spell does 21.5 damage per Caster Level (save for half)
Celestial Bombardment: 3 hits of 12.5 fire damage per character level
Divine Wrath: 12.5 light damage per caster level(save for half) Allies caught within the blast are healed for 1d6 positive energy damage per caster level.
Level 6/8
Arcane Tempest: 4 hits of 9.5 per caster level, force damage, every 2 seconds, for 8 seconds (save for half on first hit)


As you can see, the epic strikes which are made to define your epic experience and notably have shared cooldowns ensuring exclusivity between one another, do a fraction of the damage of lower tier spells. Obviously this criticism also applies to many of the AoE epic strikes as well, but these ones in particular are far outliers due to their single target nature on top of poor scaling.

It's worth noting, before the recent changes some of the AoE Epic strikes were able to overcome the inferior scaling by having no max caster levels, making it possible to get roughly 60~90% more caster levels; making them very competitive. And in competitively scaling abilities like dragon breath, extremely powerful.
 
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voenixa121

Well-known member
Storm catcher slows and reduces saves, strike a cord gives cords of fate etc. Spells like iceberg or thunderstroke have damage, and only damage. Also totally ignoring cost. Most of these epic strikes cost very little sp and have free meta magic. Almost all of them also don't have a save.
I'm actually glad they are not all pure nuke spells. As you have shown nuke spells are already in the game, do we really need a nuke spell+ and a nuke spell++ and so on? Most spells are already underused, they shouldn't just get replaced by the next one like gear. Why have 9 spell levels plus all the SLAs if there is always that one spell dealing the highest damage and nothing else?
If anything give underperforming epic strikes more, unique utility. Not just higher numbers.
 
Ooblagato

Ooblagato

Hiding in plain sight
voenixa121 said:
Storm catcher slows and reduces saves, strike a cord gives cords of fate etc. Spells like iceberg or thunderstroke have damage, and only damage. Also totally ignoring cost. Most of these epic strikes cost very little sp and have free meta magic. Almost all of them also don't have a save.
I'm actually glad they are not all pure nuke spells. As you have shown nuke spells are already in the game, do we really need a nuke spell+ and a nuke spell++ and so on? Most spells are already underused, they shouldn't just get replaced by the next one like gear. Why have 9 spell levels plus all the SLAs if there is always that one spell dealing the highest damage and nothing else?
If anything give underperforming epic strikes more, unique utility. Not just higher numbers.
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I think the utility is cool, and is a good approach to balance these, but as it stands they are just too bad at what they do to feel significant.
If the debuff was AoE and lasted more than a few seconds that'd be one thing, but it doesn't even last as long as its own cooldown, not to mention the slow is barely noticeable (and may not apply to some enemies).
If debuffs are the point of the epic strike, those debuffs should feel impactful and special.

While there is some value in low spell point cost, it's only necessary to have them be low cost to increase availability to non caster focused builds, so unless they're going to make a high SP cost version it shouldn't be considered too heavily in balancing.

Similarly building stacks is cool, but have you looked at the damage of the echoes of discord? It's also quite pitiful at just 4.5/9 damage per caster level.

In general almost all of the epic strikes should be AoE. And the exceptions should have something exceptionally good to justify it.
 
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l_remmie

Well-known member
The epic strikes are not bad on their own, they are cheap SLA's. It's the context that makes them feel so bad. They don't fill the slot people want. That of a real "epic spell".

Epic strikes should be lvl30 have a very long cooldown or limited uses, cost a ton of sp and do a significant amount more dmg than a lvl9 spell.

The lvl 20 spells should be called signiture spells or something like that.
 
Epicsoul

Epicsoul

Well-known member
Having enjoyed playing my level 32 Fiend Warlock for over a year, I can't help but agree that caster Epic Strikes are underwhelming and anti-fun.

Previously, my Warlock was a blast to play (pun intended), dealing with trash mobs easily enough in high reaper and providing crowd control. However, since the update, trying out various Epic Strikes has left me feeling disheartened. The once-fun gameplay has now become lackluster.

While I understood the need for adjustments, the overreaching nerf to Dragon Breath was particularly disappointing. What's worse is the absence of compelling alternatives. The disparity in damage output between my regular Warlock blasts and these supposedly epic abilities is barely noticeable. It isn't worth the extra button click, and I find myself just attacking with my Warlock blast.

Even with lowered expectations, the updated scaling surpassed my worst fears for DPS casters.

RIP my Warlock. I plan to TR.
 
Douglas Glyndwr

Douglas Glyndwr

Bard Life
After the update, my bard's Strike a CHORD is doing at least 4x damage as before, with a quick cooldown, so I use it early and often.
 
Lazuli

Lazuli

Well-known member
OP, what you say was repeatedly pointed out during lammania preview, and our feedback was ignored. I doubt devs will bother to even read your post. It is obvious that they have never wanted feedback, they already had their idea pre-established from the beginning.

Add to that the fact that in general the spell damage is depressing in high reaper and that the casters do not have stamina to withstand those immense bags of hps that are the raid bosses (and which is the only important thing in modern raids), and in general you could say that casters are an obsolete playstyle.
 
droid327

droid327

Well-known member
I think the mistake you're making is thinking Epic Strikes are supposed to be "level 10" spells. They're not. That's really what the abilities are supposed to be in the upper tiers of EDs, things like Holy Fireball and Weird.

Epic Strikes are supposed to be basic rotational attacks...so that makes them more like L7-8 spells, at least according to the intended design philosophy. They arent supposed to outclass L9 spells, which require more spellpoints and a significant investment in class levels. They're supposed to be on the same tier as things like DBF or Polar Ray, and those are doing ~10-12 damage per clvl.

Now you can argue that Epic Strikes arent even adequate for that lower standard, but you'll get more attention if you make the right argument.
 
droid327

droid327

Well-known member
DBZ said:
Who wants epic desitinies that are EPIC who wants Legendary gear thats frigin LEGENDARY

idk mate idk
Click to expand...

I actually dont want EDs to be so Epic that they make Heroic stuff obsolete, and likewise dont want Legendary abilities that make Epic obsolete

The game should start to grow more horizontally past 20, not purely vertically. Give us more to do, not just better ways to do the one thing we already do.
 
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DBZ

Well-known member
Before Stat squish and this i was excited now there just boring and bland meh

Haven't regeared since Sharn since the gears so lame now

If Myth Drannor does not POP and is the most SHINY CHROME going to be an epic fail
 
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karthunk

karthunk

Dooooooom
droid327 said:
I think the mistake you're making is thinking Epic Strikes are supposed to be "level 10" spells. They're not. That's really what the abilities are supposed to be in the upper tiers of EDs, things like Holy Fireball and Weird.

Epic Strikes are supposed to be basic rotational attacks...so that makes them more like L7-8 spells, at least according to the intended design philosophy. They arent supposed to outclass L9 spells, which require more spellpoints and a significant investment in class levels. They're supposed to be on the same tier as things like DBF or Polar Ray, and those are doing ~10-12 damage per clvl.

Now you can argue that Epic Strikes arent even adequate for that lower standard, but you'll get more attention if you make the right argument.
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That in turn makes them nearly useless. When I'm running a quest I need to decide what spell I'm going to use in the 3-4, less if playing EE or low Rs, spells required for a group of mobs.

Right now, even after the changes, most of the epic strikes simply aren't good enough to earn being placed in one of those slots. DB was used by all casters because the alternatives were terrible.
 
D

DBZ

Well-known member
And now that destinies are done the LIONS share has to come from spells period

Sorcs and alchs still work rest not so much or at all

And druids are probably just stronger as melees or tanks you could make a caster but why would you
 
Aelonwy

Aelonwy

Well-known member
droid327 said:
I think the mistake you're making is thinking Epic Strikes are supposed to be "level 10" spells. They're not. That's really what the abilities are supposed to be in the upper tiers of EDs, things like Holy Fireball and Weird.

Epic Strikes are supposed to be basic rotational attacks...so that makes them more like L7-8 spells, at least according to the intended design philosophy. They arent supposed to outclass L9 spells, which require more spellpoints and a significant investment in class levels.

Now you can argue that Epic Strikes arent even adequate for that lower standard, but you'll get more attention if you make the right argument.
Click to expand...
Why shouldn't we think Epic strikes should be like 10th level spells? You have to be at least 20th level to access them? You have to be a completed heroic character, done with your heroic levels to open Epic Destinies. To access Weird you have to be 30th level essentially Legendary by their own nomenclature and standards. Words have meaning. We object to labeling something Epic and then making it equivalent to heroic abilities.

No one is asking for Heroic stuff to be obsolete. We are asking for our Epic stuff to actually feel Epic.

I am beginning to wonder if Legendary levels will end up feeling all the same because its clear to me they really didn't have a plan for expanding character growth or options past the old level cap which is what I thought was the explanation for revamping Epic Destinies in the first place. I thought we were told Epic Destinies had to be rebuilt because everyone that had ground out their destiny power simply was whatever they were going to be from 20 to 30 and there was very little character growth in those 10 levels because of limited feat options and only gear made you feel your character grow stronger. But gee that looks like exactly what is going to happen from 30 to 40 because you may end up with more Destiny points but by the time you get to 30 you are going to have limited options on what to spend them on.
 
droid327

droid327

Well-known member
Aelonwy said:
Why shouldn't we think Epic strikes should be like 10th level spells? You have to be at least 20th level to access them?
Click to expand...

Counterpoint, why should a L20 Barb have access to L10 spells at the same point as a L20 Sorc or Druid?

Destinies are not meant to define or redefine your playstyle, but to augment it. L9 spells are your capstones, they're the apotheosis of your class progression. But you cant cast them all the time, so Epic Strikes are meant to fill the space between Meteors or Bombardments etc., just like how SLAs are in heroic class trees.
 
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