14 Pal/X Dlord vs. Pure Dlord vs. Pure Paladin

[PraetorPlato]

So are you just dropping all the trances (STR or CHA) and opting to STR max?

I feel like you can get a balance maybe as CHA as secondary and going CHA trance. I wonder what the mathmatical sweet spot is between STR and CHA. Hmm...

STR max will always mean secondary stat trance (usually cha or wis). Rage is better than STR trance for anything but TWF, TWF can use STR trance.

 

[Mordenkainen]

STR max will always mean secondary stat trance (usually cha or wis). Rage is better than STR trance for anything but TWF, TWF can use STR trance.

I see.

I think I see the game here. But if rage is always better than STR trance than I still say CHA max is better as you can rage and do the CHA trance?

Also, if I go CHA max I can spam this baby:

Although, I'm not sure what the DC thresholds are for colour spray.

 

[PraetorPlato]

I think I see the game here. But if rage is always better than STR trance than I still say CHA max is better as you can rage and do the CHA trance?

Rage with cha max isn't very useful—the reason rage is good is it's 10+ strength.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Rage with cha max isn't very useful—the reason rage is good is it's 10+ strength.

Right, so that adds to your DC tactics and as long as it doesn't get over CHA, you got the benefits of everything including trance, rage, the attack/damage, the extra DC tactics from PDK, and of course you can spam Colour Spray every 8 seconds for even more CC (like do you need more? lol)

 

[SpartanKiller13]

So are you just dropping all the trances (STR or CHA) and opting to STR max?

I feel like you can get a balance maybe as CHA as secondary and going CHA trance. I wonder what the mathematical sweet spot is between STR and CHA. Hmm...

I'm maxing Str and using Cha trance from Pally, which works fine while Raging. I think you can even use the DL Cha trance while raging (based on the Wiki) but I haven't tested. Having a trance is a lot of ~cheap stats, it's hard to give up on any endgame DPS build (even that build with a mediocre 60 Cha is +12 damage).

Given 0.5 stat-to-damage vs 2.0 stat-to-damage (SWF w/OV), the damage breakeven is 4 Cha per 1 Str. If you're THF it's 5 Cha per 1 Str. The math for that bit is pretty easy There's some slight differences with stuff like attack bonus and tactics, but damage was your original goal. It's almost always easier to get +1 Str vs another +4 Cha, so you kinda just max Str and then get whatever Cha you can.

I think I see the game here. But if rage is always better than STR trance than I still say CHA max is better as you can rage and do the CHA trance?

Rage is not always better than Str trance. If you had more Str or less Cha, using Str trance would be better for my build. It's pretty close for mine, FWIW. If I scroll Tenser's, have the improved Scream from a party member, have Bard songs, and use a Titan's Grip clicky they break even on my build (let alone Bloodrage, Madstone, Roc's Strength, etc). If I was doing a Falchion build on a non-WElf, I'd be doing that probably (since I wouldn't want to sink that many points into KotC then, which I am since I'm using a longsword).

Cha-max and using rage to fill out some Str for tactics is ok, but doesn't seem super great? Make a build maybe.

Also, if I go CHA max I can spam Greater Color Spray

Although, I'm not sure what the DC thresholds are for colour spray.

In my experience, to have endgame GCS on a DPS melee build is very high opportunity cost. I did it with an 18/2 Pally/Cleric build last year or so, had viable Crusade, GCS, and Turn Undead endgame. But I had full Cha & spell DC filigree, spell DC's from ED's/feats etc, and the gear tetris was a nightmare.

For leveling it's incredible on any Int/Wis/Cha-max toon, but I haven't had much success at endgame on non-casters.

Rage with cha max isn't very useful—the reason rage is good is it's 10+ strength.

Perhaps to bump your Stunning Blow DC's or something, but yeah I agree. I'm running Str-max w/Rage with Cha secondary for trance (and saves and LoH).

 

[Mordenkainen]

I'm maxing Str and using Cha trance from Pally, which works fine while Raging. I think you can even use the DL Cha trance while raging (based on the Wiki) but I haven't tested. Having a trance is a lot of ~cheap stats, it's hard to give up on any endgame DPS build (even that build with a mediocre 60 Cha is +12 damage).

Given 0.5 stat-to-damage vs 2.0 stat-to-damage (SWF w/OV), the damage breakeven is 4 Cha per 1 Str. If you're THF it's 5 Cha per 1 Str. The math for that bit is pretty easy There's some slight differences with stuff like attack bonus and tactics, but damage was your original goal. It's almost always easier to get +1 Str vs another +4 Cha, so you kinda just max Str and then get whatever Cha you can.


Rage is not always better than Str trance. If you had more Str or less Cha, using Str trance would be better for my build. It's pretty close for mine, FWIW. If I scroll Tenser's, have the improved Scream from a party member, have Bard songs, and use a Titan's Grip clicky they break even on my build (let alone Bloodrage, Madstone, Roc's Strength, etc). If I was doing a Falchion build on a non-WElf, I'd be doing that probably (since I wouldn't want to sink that many points into KotC then, which I am since I'm using a longsword).

Cha-max and using rage to fill out some Str for tactics is ok, but doesn't seem super great? Make a build maybe.

In my experience, to have endgame GCS on a DPS melee build is very high opportunity cost. I did it with an 18/2 Pally/Cleric build last year or so, had viable Crusade, GCS, and Turn Undead endgame. But I had full Cha & spell DC filigree, spell DC's from ED's/feats etc, and the gear tetris was a nightmare.

For leveling it's incredible on any Int/Wis/Cha-max toon, but I haven't had much success at endgame on non-casters.

Perhaps to bump your Stunning Blow DC's or something, but yeah I agree. I'm running Str-max w/Rage with Cha secondary for trance (and saves and LoH).

Real quick, how are you getting .5 CHA to 2.0 STR stat-to-damage ?

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Man I thought you were soloing R8+ with your melee builds, why you asking us for advice?

as Much as I love smashing elminster let him be for this thread Im glad when he isnt trolling for once

 

[PraetorPlato]

Real quick, how are you getting .5 CHA to 2.0 STR stat-to-damage ?

Trance vs SWF

 

[Mordenkainen]

Trance vs SWF

But if you go PDK, the "relevant ability score modifier" would be CHA and not STR ?

 

[PraetorPlato]

But if you go PDK, the "relevant ability score modifier" would be CHA and not STR ?

Yeah, SpartanKiller was discussing the STR max CHA trance case, which is almost always DPS optimal.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Yeah, SpartanKiller was discussing the STR max CHA trance case, which is almost always DPS optimal.

But why? OK apart from CHA being a more difficult stat to juice up relative to STR especially with gear tetris. With PDK's CKT, CHA is for all intents and purposes exactly like STR and with the DLord CHA trance you can double dip into that single stat without having to go too ballisitic with STR.

Albeit, it'll probably be a wash with STR max, but there's other benefits to CHA max, for instance now the Dread Visage of T5 Ravager is based around Intimidate which is a CHA based skill. Also, let's you gain access to Greater Color Spray as mentioned (although unsure if I can get illusion DC's high enough to matter.)

I mean if you're going for Max DPS, why not just go full on Paladin (which at least from my calculations has a much higher DPS threshold, like better than Frenzy Barb DPS).

Anyway, just seeing if the math has been completely done out before making a judgement call.

 

[PraetorPlato]

But why? OK apart from CHA being a more difficult stat to juice up relative to STR especially with gear tetris. With PDK's CKT, CHA is for all intents and purposes exactly like STR and with the DLord CHA trance you can double dip into that single stat without having to go too ballisitic with STR.

Albeit, it'll probably be a wash with STR max, but there's other benefits to CHA max, for instance now the Dread Visage of T5 Ravager is based around Intimidate which is a CHA based skill. Also, let's you gain access to Greater Color Spray as mentioned (although unsure if I can get illusion DC's high enough to matter.)

I mean if you're going for Max DPS, why not just go full on Paladin (which at least from my calculations has a much higher DPS threshold, like better than Frenzy Barb DPS).

Anyway, just seeing if the math has been completely done out before making a judgement call.

STR is ahead by 14 to start (4 from double raid rare fil, which you run for MP anyway, 10 from rage). In boost, it’s 6 more from titan’s grip, 3 more from cape of the roc, 4 more from tensors, 4 more from madstone, so 31 ahead. Because SWF is 2x stat to damage, that’s 14/31 more damage, which is 5-15% of your overall damage.

 

[Mordenkainen]

STR is ahead by 14 to start (4 from double raid rare fil, which you run for MP anyway, 10 from rage). In boost, it’s 6 more from titan’s grip, 3 more from cape of the roc, 4 more from tensors, 4 more from madstone, so 31 ahead. Because SWF is 2x stat to damage, that’s 14/31 more damage, which is 5-15% of your overall damage.

But for exactly the reasons you listed you should go CHA. Like I can slap on double raid fili's, cape, titans, mad boots I have all of them no prob, of course grab true rage from Fury and voila.

That's what I'm saying, there's like a kitchen sink full of STR boosts out there, not much for CHA. Also, I still het the 2x from SWF with CHA as I go CTK from PDK.

 

[PraetorPlato]

But for exactly the reasons you listed you should go CHA. Like I can slap on double raid fili's, cape, titans, mad boots I have all of them no prob, of course grab true rage from Fury and voila.

That's what I'm saying, there's like a kitchen sink full of STR boosts out there, not much for CHA. Also, I still het the 2x from SWF with CHA as I go CTK from PDK.

if you have a ton of str boosts, then you should go strength, because then strength will be higher than cha, and you'll benefit from the 2x mod on the higher ability score. If you can get both strength and cha to 90, then that 15-30 extra strength will be 15-30 extra flat damage you couldn't get by going cha.

 

[Oliphant]

I don't play melee much but checking it out. How does a Dragonlord rage? Does rage shut off the Dragonlord STR/CHA Trance?

 

[PraetorPlato]

I don't play melee much but checking it out. How does a Dragonlord rage? Does rage shut off the Dragonlord STR/CHA Trance?

Fury. Rage shuts off str trance, but not cha trance.

 

[rabidfox]

I don't play melee much but checking it out. How does a Dragonlord rage? Does rage shut off the Dragonlord STR/CHA Trance?

Anyone can rage via Fury of the Wild.

 

[Oliphant]

Anyone can rage via Fury of the Wild.

Thanks, does it shut off the DL trance?

Edit: I see PraetorPlato already answered. Seems like that is a huge hit for going STR based but advice in the thread suggests going STR based is better. I'm still missing something.

 

[rabidfox]

Thanks, does it shut off the DL trance?

Edit: I see PraetorPlato already answered. Seems like that is a huge hit for going STR based but advice in the thread suggests going STR based is better. I'm still missing something.

It blocks the STR trance not the CHA trance. So could you go max STR (followed by CON/CHA) and CHA trance when raged. Because of the ability to get STR way higher, it should math out being better then maxing CHA over STR for doing damage.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Real quick, how are you getting .5 CHA to 2.0 STR stat-to-damage ?

SWF is 2.0x stat-to-damage, Trance is 0.5x stat-to-damage

But if you go PDK, the "relevant ability score modifier" would be CHA and not STR ?

Only if you use Shortsword, Bastard Sword, Longsword, or Greatsword; want to LHoW/ER into DLordand want to have the PDK racial tree. Short & Gsword are both eh. Longsword could, but I'd rather have the HOrc tree and not use a LHoW. BSword is ok with SWF + THF stuff, but I'm after raid DPS so I want Knight's Training.

Yeah, SpartanKiller was discussing the STR max CHA trance case, which is almost always DPS optimal.

I could be wrong, but that was my thought.

But why? OK apart from CHA being a more difficult stat to juice up relative to STR especially with gear tetris. With PDK's CKT, CHA is for all intents and purposes exactly like STR and with the DLord CHA trance you can double dip into that single stat without having to go too ballisitic with STR.

Lots more Str bonuses, CKT is only for swords, and PDK isn't a great racial tree.

Double-dipping stats is great. That's why Cha Pally is a thing, you get to dip Main stat, Trance stat, Saves, Lay on Hands, social skills, etc. I'd generally recommend it. But Strength Trance doesn't let you rage, and raging with a non-main-stat trance is better than just the Str trance, at least for me in this case.

Use the builder, make a build, compare the numbers

Albeit, it'll probably be a wash with STR max, but there's other benefits to CHA max, for instance now the Dread Visage of T5 Ravager is based around Intimidate which is a CHA based skill. Also, let's you gain access to Greater Color Spray as mentioned (although unsure if I can get illusion DC's high enough to matter.)

I mean if you're going for Max DPS, why not just go full on Paladin (which at least from my calculations has a much higher DPS threshold, like better than Frenzy Barb DPS).

Anyway, just seeing if the math has been completely done out before making a judgement call.

Visage is Ravager capstone, not T5. It's great fun, and pretty good even into endgame for like high Reaper questing, but T5 Ravager is not viable for any discussion of high endgame DPS. Greataxe w/Ravager T5 & Holy Sword is 17-20/x4, vs Falchion at 14-20/x4 with DL T5 + HSword. Also you can get high enough Intim without Cha-maxing, if you gear a little for it.

I haven't seen an endgame melee DPS build that had viable Illusion DC's. Maybe it's doable, but all my build attempts made too many sacrifices to DPS to get the Illusion up there.

STR is ahead by 14 to start (4 from double raid rare fil, which you run for MP anyway, 10 from rage). In boost, it’s 6 more from titan’s grip, 3 more from cape of the roc, 4 more from tensors, 4 more from madstone, so 31 ahead. Because SWF is 2x stat to damage, that’s 14/31 more damage, which is 5-15% of your overall damage.

Another +3 from Horc (22 from base + cores, vs 19 from base + cores), +3 from Rage since Horc, +2-4 from Scream, +2 from Ram's Might, +3 from filigree for me (2x Dreadbringer, 1x Prowess Str) - and there's another +13 ~standing.