Dragonborn breath dissapointment
- Thread starter drjoans
- Start date
All SLA with universal character level progression instead of specific class are using charisma modifier and you can notice it when looking at racial trees (universal trees have specific uses like class one) or dragonmarks.
I guess that possible reason is to make charisma less dumb stat, because intelligence increases skill points, wisdom will, constitution fortitude/hp, dexterity reflex/ac, strength weight/checks.
The Blonde
Catalogues Bugs
I hope this both means that a) things that boost Breath DC work on Poison Breath & Gold Breath, and b) that Daunting Roar now works on them too.
Since you're digging into Breath bugs, it would be nice if you could look into the remaining ones:
1) Some people claim "Eldritch Aura" (Enlightened Spirit Core counts as a Breath Attack. If true, it's unlikely it is WAI (it's likely a halo effect from DI's Energy Vortex being typed as a Breath Attack).
2) Does "Augmented Breath" (Dragonborn T4) affect ALL of your Breath Attacks? Or just your racial one? And if it affects DI as well, does it affect ALL its shapes? As written, it should affect ALL Breath Attacks (incl. Alchemist & Druid ones).
3) Do things that boost Breath DCs (gear, enhancements) also boost Cold Breath's & Blighted Breath's DCs? Don't forget that these are technically Breath Attacks too (and should work with Daunting Roar, Augmented Breath, etc). Regardless, they should mention in their tooltips if they're intended to count as Breath Attacks or not, as to avoid confusion.
4) Green Dragon Breath (DI Poison Epic Strike) should use Conjuration for its DC, not Transmutation (no other Poison spell uses Transmutation, almost all use Conjuration). Also it would be nice if Dragonborn had a Green ancestry option.
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Lazuli
Well-known member
I have tried it in Lammania, and this is not true. The damage difference is abysmal, to the point that it was not worth using it in the rotation because the spells deal more damage, and DB also forces you to get closer to the enemies.
John3000
Active member
This.
Racial DB was already nerfed into uselessness... (dragon borns are pretty much useless now. Tiefling and other races are much better).
Epic DB nerf now also makes it useless. If SSG maintains the nerf, my suggestion is to beef up the synergy between Dragon born race and the Epic Strike DB so as to actually give a viable path to useing epic DB, all while creating incentives to choose DB Race (Tiefling get immunity stripping, Dragon borns should be the masters of breath attacks _ No MCLs / Bonus dice / or something else special). Even lore-wise, dragon born should be the absolute masters of DB.
Cheers
Lazuli
Well-known member
Dragonborn is the best race for nukers, even if their dragonbreath isn't worth much. The only thing Tieflings have is immunity stripping for fire, which isn't even good because you have to be at point-blank range to use it.
Dragonborn has MCL, spellpower, and evo/conjuration DCs. I wish it wasn't the best race for nuker, that it even had minimal competition, because aesthetically I don't like it and I have to swallow it with my sorc.
Dragonborn has MCL, spellpower, and evo/conjuration DCs. I wish it wasn't the best race for nuker, that it even had minimal competition, because aesthetically I don't like it and I have to swallow it with my sorc.
drjoans
kinda-known member
Yeah I just grabbed the dc's and spellpower with the charisma. Still a solid base for race outside of the breath. I also wasnt a huge fan of the asthetics :/
John3000
Active member
Ok, I was a bit harsh
Probably depends on your build / class + solo vs team play + low reaper vs high reaper ...In my personal experience I've felt the tiefling kit more useful.
Tiefling gets :
- +2 Cha and 25 fire spellpower from core
- possibly +10 universal spellpower from T2 if you itemize orb or staff
- +2% fire crit damage from T3
- Improved scorch AOE immunity stripping that also applies a 5% increased vulnerability to fire damage (sure, it fires off from you but has a decent reach... and besides, if you are using epic dragon breath, you are probably speccing to be able to get up close anyways. Though I'll admit it's not for the distant nuker builds. And lvl 20 savent can do without, though the 5% vulnerability is still nice.)
+ another +3% Fire crit damage, and possibly another +30 universal spellpower +2 evoc/conjuration DCs
+ Infernal Sovereign which allows you to use your fire spell power for Acid, Cold or electric spells... allowing double dipping with less itemization. from T4
Dragonborn gets :
- +2 Cha from core
- +3 Spell Penenetration from T1
- +3 DC Breath Attack (This could be nice, but in my experience, rarely makes a difference and is limited to DB),
+30 spell power to DB's element,
+1 MCL and +2 MCL in the element (This is the nicest part of tree, but in my experience is only a small increase in DPS) from T3 - +3 evo/conj DC from T4
So tiefling has potentially 35 more spell power, 5% more crit damage, AOE breath ranged immunity stripping with 5% vulnerability debuff, and double dip spell power, (+ aesthetically better looking, albeit a personal choice
)While dragon born gets a +1 MCL and +2 MCL in the element, 3 Spell Pen, +1 evo/conj DC advantage, and extra +3 spell breath DC.
In terms of raw damage, does 1 or 2 MCL outweigh 35 sp, 5% crit damage + 5% vulnerability ???
If you're tight on DCs or spell pen, or tight on racial AP, I guess I can understand dragon born...
Cheers
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You are kinda forgeting that Dragonborn can be used with 4 different elements and tiefling only with fire. Also it is very unlikely you will use the cloud from the tree and invest that many points into it only to use it in very rare situations. So it's more like 3 breath dc, 3 evo/conj dc, 33 (3 tier 1 and 30 tier 3) spellpower, +1 cl and +2 mcl from dragonborn vs 5% vuln, 5% crit dmg and like 38 (35 cores + 3 tier 1) spellpower from tiefling
Probably dragonborn always the best choice for nukers, MCL increase is just that op
Probably dragonborn always the best choice for nukers, MCL increase is just that op
Lazuli
Well-known member
Dragonborn is the best choice for nukers. With fire the tiefling is decent, but it is useless for any other element. Also true nukers have striping immunity, so the tiefling's is useless. I have only used it with fire warlock and heroic sorc, but it costs a lot of APs, is limited to using scorch at close range and lasts only 5 sec. From level 12 it is more practical to use awaken weakness with a sorc (and from 20, elemental apotheosis makes this completely useless)
The tiefling's vulnerability is very meh, you can only activate it with scorch and it is much lower than what you get with equipment. The stuff related to the cloud of darkness is basically wasting action points, neither you nor your enemies are going to have the luxury of staying still in there. With my nukers I only use one elemental damage (and tiefling is not a race for wizards), so Infernal Sovereign is of no use to me (I wish this were an archmage enhancement, it would be useful there). In addiotion, keep in mind that infernal sovereignty does not cover critical, which is more difficult to replicate than spellpower.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think dragonborn is a great race. But tiefling is no wonder either, and is only ok for fire. Which leaves the dragonborn as the king race for nukers, sadly.
The tiefling's vulnerability is very meh, you can only activate it with scorch and it is much lower than what you get with equipment. The stuff related to the cloud of darkness is basically wasting action points, neither you nor your enemies are going to have the luxury of staying still in there. With my nukers I only use one elemental damage (and tiefling is not a race for wizards), so Infernal Sovereign is of no use to me (I wish this were an archmage enhancement, it would be useful there). In addiotion, keep in mind that infernal sovereignty does not cover critical, which is more difficult to replicate than spellpower.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think dragonborn is a great race. But tiefling is no wonder either, and is only ok for fire. Which leaves the dragonborn as the king race for nukers, sadly.
John3000
Active member
I figured AOE immunity stripping made other elements irrelevant except for inherit mob vulnerabilities... for which infernal sovereign allows you to dip into the other three elements for that double damage bonus. But if you spec outside of fire, than yeah tiefling is not the best race. The cloud's extra 30 spellpower and 2 DCs costs 5 AP, so yeah not for everyone.
As for MCL, I figured there was diminishing returns as you increased... such that a +2 MCL from 20 to 22 was 10% more damage.
But 34 to 36 would only be a 5.8% damage increase. If so, wouldn't 5% crit damage + 5% party wide vulnerability be more useful ? (But probably depends on party configuration/builds + I perhaps don't fully understand how MCL is calculated into damage.)
Cheers
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Lazuli
Well-known member
Currently meta nukers specialize in cold, because the itemization and synergy with Glacial wrath makes it a superior option. Fire is viable, the second best option (well, maybe nor for alch), but far from a dominant option now. Tiefling is not good for cold, so many players don't even consider tiefling for their nuker, since they are making cold nukers.
The tiefling's stripping immunity is highly desirable for warlock, which lacks a bypass in its class. But we have to be realistic, it is a very limited option (only activated with scorch SLA, point-blank use, 5 sec duration), and the problem is the same as what was said before: it only works for the infernal warlock, who is the only one who uses fire. Any of the other warlock pacts do not gain benefit from this enhancement. A true nuker is going to have a much better bypass in his class from level 12, so his usefulness on a true nuker is very short, and I honestly don't miss his absence before that level.
The vulnerability is interesting, but the thing is that it is only 5% and a nuker should have a better option than that on his gear. And above all, it is only activated using scorch. Scorch is a nice SLA on low heroics, but it's not competitive after that, and on high reaper you don't want to get into point blank range with enemies.
5% crit isn't bad, it is the best benefit that tiefling gives but I honestly felt like the devs ruined the race for nukers when they nerfed it.
+2MCL is that your spells can do two more dice of damage than the maximum you normally could. That's amplified by your spellpower and critical, which on a nuker should be high. I wouldn't call it OP, but it is not conditional on using an SLA, being at point-blank range with your enemies, or with a very short duration. It is a constant increase to all your spells of that element. So it's a solid benefit.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
When it was crit, it was amazing. When they nerf'd it to crit damage, it became very mediocre.
John3000
Active member
Lazuli
Well-known member
Yup, and it's the only benefit (removing spellpower) that is not conditional, because expecting you to have to stand still in a cloud after spending so many aps to get a DC increase seems ridiculous, and the 5 sec bypass using a point-blank SLA is also very mediocre.
The devs have gone to great lengths to render the caster options useless in recent years.
Lazuli
Well-known member
I'm really sorry that the devs nerfed the tiefling so much, because aesthetically I like it a lot more than the dragonborn :(Ok, thanks for the info. Makes sense