Please no "silver bullets" in DDO

[EinarMal]

I agree with the OP that the game would be better if bypassing monster immunities wasn't in the game.

It oversimplifies spell selection resulting in more braindead combat and does break immersion. Whenever I kill fire elementals or devils with my fire spells on my tiefling FVS it feels really cheesy to me. Its never felt right.

They should remove then DR bypass and sneak attack bypass, as those "don't feel right" then.

 

[EinarMal]

To me the issue is a lot of people see "min-maxing" as the only viable strategy. It's the same thing with the discussion about melee where I said the game should just get rid of kill counts. I don't use DI at all, and while I of course don't have the same min-maxed DPS potential on my Stormsinger, it still performs reasonably well and is versatile enough to complete most quests solo on high reapers even without immunity stripping. Gearing for the three elements on the Primal Mantle actually makes it mostly competitive with Draconic outside of single target/boss DPS.

I believe that would actually incentivize more build variety and open other Epic Destiny alternatives for end game - because the one alternative for min-maxers would not be enough anymore.

Cheers,
NH

Raids already favor non-casters outside of 1-2 healers, one bard, maybe one CC caster.

What if someone wants to run raids, R10 at cap? Why should your playstyle be forced on others?

 

[NightHiker]

What if someone wants to run raids, R10 at cap? Why should your playstyle be forced on others?

I run r10s at cap without issues, and can keep up with most casters outside of the top tier built druids/sorcs/alchemists - on pugs I often still stay on the top of the kill counts, and while I don't push high reaper raids, I still do alright up to r1 ones, with only Skellies dermanding more care on the mana management side (and that with ALL metamagics turned on 100% of the time in both r10s and raids).

And that's not a "playstyle", by the way - my playstyle is exactly the same, "CC/DPS caster" - I just have to be more creative while building my toon because it naturally does not have immunity stripping so I simply cannot go the min-max path as I usually solo and need to be self-sufficient.

It was a lot of work to come up with a gear set that featured spellpower, crit chance and crit damage for 3.5 elements (sonic, electric, cold and the .5 goes to positive, as I want it as high as possible as well and even managed some crit damage, though it's not as critical). While also having to take care of both Evocation and Enchantment DCs to be effective at cap as well CC wise. There were a lot of tough choices involved - but if I can manage, I don't see why others couldn't. You would lose the "easy button" as far as gear and build decision making goes, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

Cheers,
NH

 

[CBDunk]

With the new Macrotechnic destiny added I wanted to try out a runearm / construct build again.

I quickly concluded that I still needed to be an Artificer for runearms to be viable at endgame, and further that I then had a choice of going T5 Arcanotechnician for electricity immunity removal OR T5 Renegade Mastermaker to be able to not fall over dead every time a mob looked at me funny. So... Renegade Mastermaker it is.

As a result, I've been able to see that there are A LOT of endgame boss mobs that are immune to electricty. Happened repeatedly in the new Vecna quests. No problem... I'll just swap to a fire runearm and... hmmm, immune to that too. Acid? No good. MANY bosses have immunity to two or even three types of damage now. Yeah, I can usually find an option that works, but my extra electric damage from Draconic Incarnation is useless and I'm basically stuck doing 'heroic level' damage in legendary content.

The damage types are not all created equal. I have to wonder if the 'there should be no immunity removal' types touting Stormsinger and other 'versatile' builds would feel that way if half the endgame bosses had, for example, Sonic and Electric immunity. There currently isn't a need for 'sonic immunity removal' because, so far as I know, there aren't ANY mobs that are immune to sonic damage. In contrast, there are multiple quest CHAINS where EVERYTHING is immune to poison damage.

Put another way... we should eliminate sonic builds because they all have 'sonic immunity removal' built in.

 

[Br4d]

When SSG makes a caster’s power come overwhelmingly from a single element, the game becomes very un-fun if that element doesn’t work in a quest. I’m not opposed to the idea of requiring offensive casters to use diverse elements, but doing that means the game has to actively support casters using diverse elements instead of only giving a character abilities that support a single element.

Gotta pick one - either push casters into single elements and give them a method of immunity bypass or give casters real tools to diversify their elemental damage and stay competitive.

And I think we all know that SSG isn’t interested in giving casters the ability to have strong offensive casting in multiple elements…

Every caster has access to at least one reasonably powerful second damage type in their repertoire. It's not at the level that their primary damage type is, however why does it have to be?

On some pulls you're at 70% of damage potential because your primary element doesn't function against one or more mobs however you're still capable with the secondary damage type, just not a rampaging god out of control like you are with the primary.

 

[EinarMal]

Every caster has access to at least one reasonably powerful second damage type in their repertoire. It's not at the level that their primary damage type is, however why does it have to be?

On some pulls you're at 70% of damage potential because your primary element doesn't function against one or more mobs however you're still capable with the secondary damage type, just not a rampaging god out of control like you are with the primary.

Unless the mobs heal from damage as well, and you have to turn off your mantle, lose your epic strike, in epics there is no way you are 70% if a large number of mobs are immune, heal from your damage, or are Iron Golems.

Heroics there is no issue, you do not need bypass.

 

[DBZ]

You have no idea powerful 2nd is a joke in DI

 

[EinarMal]

I run r10s at cap without issues, and can keep up with most casters outside of the top tier built druids/sorcs/alchemists - on pugs I often still stay on the top of the kill counts, and while I don't push high reaper raids, I still do alright up to r1 ones, with only Skellies dermanding more care on the mana management side (and that with ALL metamagics turned on 100% of the time in both r10s and raids).

And that's not a "playstyle", by the way - my playstyle is exactly the same, "CC/DPS caster" - I just have to be more creative while building my toon because it naturally does not have immunity stripping so I simply cannot go the min-max path as I usually solo and need to be self-sufficient.

It was a lot of work to come up with a gear set that featured spellpower, crit chance and crit damage for 3.5 elements (sonic, electric, cold and the .5 goes to positive, as I want it as high as possible as well and even managed some crit damage, though it's not as critical). While also having to take care of both Evocation and Enchantment DCs to be effective at cap as well CC wise. There were a lot of tough choices involved - but if I can manage, I don't see why others couldn't. You would lose the "easy button" as far as gear and build decision making goes, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

Cheers,
NH

They would be better off choosing someone else who can bypass immunities if they just want DPS. Although with Bards you bring some other elements that can benefit the group like spot healing and buffs.

I am well aware of how to build casters without bypass. Never the less you are at a disadvantage in content where you lose your primary element.

All elements are also not the same, in fact it is very different. Bards are fortunate to have sonic as a strong backup, Acid is the next best element. If you are stuck with cold/fire/negative and can't bypass immunity good luck with that.

 

[Br4d]

Unless the mobs heal from damage as well, and you have to turn off your mantle, lose your epic strike, in epics there is no way you are 70% if a large number of mobs are immune, heal from your damage, or are Iron Golems.

Heroics there is no issue, you do not need bypass.

You're using the damage type they are not immune too because as a caster you *know* that without immunity stripping you need to carry a second caster stick for your second damage type and you need to have a secondary skill bar prepared to quickly switch too when you suddenly find your primary rotation useless due to the mobs you are facing.

Or that's how it should work.

DDO has become boring because endless builds all lead to the same end result.

 

[DBZ]

Thats the EDS the problem all melees fury all ranged shiradi all casters DI no real choices

They could have put stripping in the new ED then it could be useable by a few builds

 

[Br4d]

There would be real choices in the absence of immunity stripping. DI would still look great in most situations but some of the other ED's would become options if a player didn't want to lock themselves into one element with the corresponding occasional moments of weakness that this produced.

When they give you a hammer every problem looks like the same nail.

 

[DBZ]

NO there wouldnt theres still no other eds that are viable when we had shiradi there was choices need it back

And how do you fix the melee ranged problems of no other choices either

 

[Br4d]

NO there wouldnt theres still no other eds that are viable when we had shiradi there was choices need it back

And how do you fix the melee ranged problems of no other choices either

This is only because immunity stripping outside the ED system makes DI overpowered within it. If immunity stripping was no longer present then DI would become a double-edged sword.

 

[NightHiker]

Put another way... we should eliminate sonic builds because they all have 'sonic immunity removal' built in.

You conveniently left out there are very few sonic spells in the game - not enough for a full rotation. So, yeah, nothing is immune to sonic, but without electric and/or cold added to my arsenal I lose a LOT of DPS - and most importantly against bosses, since my biggest single target spells are cold and electric, not sonic. And there are several mobs that are imune to both electric AND cold, by the way, so there are a few situations where I'm out of luck on two of my three elements.

Which class that has access to poison as a main has access to only poison? Alchemists have access to pretty much all elements, if they gear for them. Blightcasters have access to poison, force and acid, wich, look at that, are exactly aligned with one of the Primal mantles...

I play a lot of artificers as well - and gear for fire and force as well outside of electric, just because I almost always will go for versatility instead of min maxing/ specialization - but they DO have immunity stripping currently - you chose not to use it... So it's up to you to be creative and make it work - like I do with my Stormsinger, despite the shortcomings. For example, the Macrotechnic tree you talked about has, hummm, sonic damage...

Again, tough choices lead to variety - right now the top performing caster builds are pretty much cookie cutter style, differing only in how many past lives and/or time and investment put into the gearing. You either build for max DPS, or you're looked at as suboptimal/inferior. Forgive me if I believe working against such kind of thinking will do the game good overall.

Cheers,
NH

 

[DBZ]

After the r10 bs nerf thinking insta kills the only way to go soon if you can hit 140 pks and weirds dgs can probably do it

 

[NightHiker]

I am well aware of how to build casters without bypass. Never the less you are at a disadvantage in content where you lose your primary element.

Sure. Without immunity stripping nobody will be optimal against all mobs. I lose a lot when I meet electric and/or cold immune mobs, but I still do enough damage to make it work and finish the quests. My point was not that you can be optimal by devoting to more than one element, but that it's ok to not be the best against everything.

It all depends on how you play. In a scenario without immunity stripping, if you solo a lot, you can trade off some damage on your main element for being able to deal with mobs that are immune to it. If you mostly group, then that's not really much of an issue as the other players can cover for your weaknesses.

Like Br4d wrote, imagine a world without immunity stripping - a lot of people would probably still go with DI as their main tree, but it would not be as preponderant and many would have to pick one of several other primary or secondary options - depending on preference and playstyle - opening up a lot more options for builds. Yeah, it would be a nerf for min-maxxer specialist casters, but a much more balanced and healthy echosystem, in my view. You're of course entitled to disagree, I don't need to tell you that.

Cheers,
NH

 

[DBZ]

And they need to add champs - reapers that are immune - heal from physical damage now thats balance

 

[Br4d]

And they need to add champs - reapers that are immune - heal from physical damage now thats balance

The logical option here is to put life-tapping mobs into the game and have them restricted to touch range on the lifetaps. Make their ability dependent on actually hitting the target, which would give dedicated tanks a good chance of not getting tapped over and over again.

Then you could add in defenses that made them or other mobs particularly hard to hit.

That's the melee nightmare mob similar to an element-immune mob in a no immunity stripping scenario for casters.

 

[NightHiker]

And they need to add champs - reapers that are immune - heal from physical damage now thats balance

I'd also love some more variety and challenges regarding reapers and reaper difficulty - however, I must admit that I am biased again in that regard since I'm almost done with my reaper farming and got pretty much all past lives, so nowadays I already mostly play for the challenge anyways. I understand people who are behind on the grind may have a different perspective.

Cheers,
NH

 

[Guntango]

And they need to add champs - reapers that are immune - heal from physical damage now thats balance

Sounds like some R11 talk.