Please Remove ICD on Dark Imbuement

Twinkle

Member
It would be nice to have any alternative to Hunts End on a thrower. That would be possible with a boost to Shadow strike in Shadow Dancer. I imagine it's the same with TWF builds and this ability. The ICD significantly reduces the damage of SD vs Shiradi.

I'd also add a couple crit multipliers to it as well (+2 mutli for the active attack itself), though honestly it's weak enough this wouldn't really matter, it's just about the imbuement dice.

You should probably re-enable adrenaline as well, it hasn't made the game any more interesting or balanced to remove ranged use of FoTW. If anything it's just more boring. Thank you,
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
Almost every single dps build outside of monks using Lotus, are all either on Hunt or Adrenaline. Now the initial reaction here might be nerf them, but if you just removed the ICD on Dark Imbuement for weapons then that opens up a host of other builds using a different epic strike. Namely sneak focused builds, which, thematically, shouldn't be using raged adrenaline blows. And this way not every ranged is just tier 5 shiradi.
 

Blerkington

Well-known member
Good suggestion, would very much like to see some improvement to this epic strike. Something along the lines of removing the ICD, allowing it on offhand strikes, and/or adding a scalar for the damage calculation so melee builds can sensibly choose the MP option.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
While I agree that epic strikes besides adrenaline and hunts end could use a rebalancing pass, removing the ICD here would be extremely bad for the game. This would instantly catapult SA builds to the top of the dps heap and effectively make everything else obsolete. Instead of only 2 epic strikes being used on dps builds everyone would be using this instead... not really an improvement...

If the ICD was to be removed you would also need to remove the SA dice scaling as well (make it 10d6 or something to match Law of the Divine). The tree is supposed to be a melee/caster hybrid so SA dice scaling was a bad idea in the first place IMO.
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
While I agree that epic strikes besides adrenaline and hunts end could use a rebalancing pass, removing the ICD here would be extremely bad for the game. This would instantly catapult SA builds to the top of the dps heap and effectively make everything else obsolete. Instead of only 2 epic strikes being used on dps builds everyone would be using this instead... not really an improvement...

If the ICD was to be removed you would also need to remove the SA dice scaling as well (make it 10d6 or something to match Law of the Divine). The tree is supposed to be a melee/caster hybrid so SA dice scaling was a bad idea in the first place IMO.
There is no way all melees use this over adrenaline. A lot of barbs, kenseis, pallies are just not going to have enough sneak dice unless built specificaly for it. Which entails splashing. All THF'ers aside wolves will still be on adrenaline. Even wolves might stay on Adrenaline. Bears arent taking it over adrenaline.

Rogues, Tempests, some type of Dark Hunter mixes, and that's about it.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
There is no way all melees use this over adrenaline. A lot of barbs, kenseis, pallies are just not going to have enough sneak dice unless built specificaly for it. Which entails splashing. All THF'ers aside wolves will still be on adrenaline. Even wolves might stay on Adrenaline. Bears arent taking it over adrenaline.

Rogues, Tempests, some type of Dark Hunter mixes, and that's about it.
All dps builds would because those other classes would no longer be considered dps :unsure:

I'm not sure many people realize how much damage this would be... (or they do, which is why its being asked for :))
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Remove the ICD and adjust damage later on down the line if warranted. I'd rather the damage be fine tuned if needed than left undesirable for fear it could actually be good and used by people.
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
While we're here, all the epic strikes could use some rebalancing. Fatesinger had Cut The Strings nerfed with an ICD because of magic missiles. Why couldn't the devs simply place an ICD only for spells. While that isn't an epic strike, it was enough to demote that destiny to the lower tiers and removed it as a choice for many dps builds. Why doesn't Shadowdancer have a good tier 5 for dps? Why is Crusader tier 5 so weak and poor?
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
Remove the ICD and adjust damage later on down the line if warranted. I'd rather the damage be fine tuned if needed than left undesirable for fear it could actually be good and used by people.
Something like 10d6 with 200% MP/RP scaling would be a fair adjustment. ie ~600 damage on hit or ~3k dps for TWF.

Just removing the ICD would allow for ~3k damage per swing or ~15k additional dps.... adrenaline doesn't even come close to this...
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
Just removing the ICD would allow for ~3k damage per swing or ~15k additional dps.... adrenaline doesn't even come close to this...
How many seconds of 15k do you need to get 200k? Longer than the duration of Dark Imbuement. Again, it will only be on rogues and dark hunters.

DI scales at 100% mp or force? 1d6 untyped per sneak dice.
Let's say 40 sneak dice on a rogue at 500 melee power. 40 x 3.5 = 140. 140 x 6 = 840 a hit of untyped damage that doesnt even scale off of prr debuffs. Let's go even higher on the scalar. 1k force power is 140 x 11 = 1540. But to get to 1k force you have to give up a lot of other damage.
 
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Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
How many seconds of 15k do you need to get 200k? Longer than the duration of Dark Imbuement. Again, it will only be on rogues and dark hunters.
Apples to oranges. Comparing a one button press 15k dps boost before debuffs to some lucky adrenaline hit is not useful.
A 500 MP 140 strength greataxe barbarian (likely the best case for adrenaline) only hits for about 100k before debuffs. (and this isn't exactly a top dps build either 🙄) You would basically need every debuff in the game for adrenaline on a TWF dps build to catch up to DI with the ICD removed. This means that non-SA TWF builds would effectively be obsolete.

DI scales at 100% mp or force? 1d6 untyped per sneak dice.
Let's say 40 sneak dice on a rogue at 500 melee power. 40 x 3.5 = 140. 140 x 6 = 840 a hit of untyped damage that doesnt even scale off of prr debuffs. Let's go even higher on the scalar. 1k force power is 140 x 11 = 1540. But to get to 1k force you have to give up a lot of other damage.
If it was limited to only melee/ranged power scaling (ie the force version kept the ICD) this would be slightly more reasonable. Although ~8k dps from one button press is still a bit insane...
If this were to happen I'd also like to see Quick Cutter have the quick part removed (ie stack the DOT on every hit instead of 2nd, 4th, etc...) so that non-SA builds have another option.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
If this were to happen I'd also like to see Quick Cutter have the quick part removed (ie stack the DOT on every hit instead of 2nd, 4th, etc...) so that non-SA builds have another option.
Open up more and more build choices. The more variety that's viable and fun, the better. There's a line between ICD choices making things meh (like the Half-Elf Dilettante: Warlock imbue's 2 sec ICD) and too OP; but revisiting all sorts of stuff and adjusting ICDs and damage scaling values/methods could open a lot of build options.
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
Apples to oranges. Comparing a one button press 15k dps boost before debuffs to some lucky adrenaline hit is not useful.
A 500 MP 140 strength greataxe barbarian (likely the best case for adrenaline) only hits for about 100k before debuffs. (and this isn't exactly a top dps build either 🙄) You would basically need every debuff in the game for adrenaline on a TWF dps build to catch up to DI with the ICD removed. This means that non-SA TWF builds would effectively be obsolete.


If it was limited to only melee/ranged power scaling (ie the force version kept the ICD) this would be slightly more reasonable. Although ~8k dps from one button press is still a bit insane...
If this were to happen I'd also like to see Quick Cutter have the quick part removed (ie stack the DOT on every hit instead of 2nd, 4th, etc...) so that non-SA builds have another option.
You mathed the damage at 1k force power. On a rogue or dark hunter. and you have the nerve to emoji... lmao, trippin'

here's the math from Teth :

Rogue twf shadow strike- 450 mp; 40d6 +35 sneak; 30 seeker; 700 fsp

10.75 d4+3 +130 13-20x7 -> 761.39 avg -> 4188 + 1750 sneak + 1120 untyped imbue

haste boosted -> 2.5 attck/sec * 10 sec * 1120 untyped * 3.65 attacks = 102200

total shadow strike dmg over 15 seconds = 114,076


Adrenaline using fast/furious

10.75 d4+3 +130 2-20x6 -> 1292.84 -> 23109 + 5688

total adrenaline dmg over 16 seconds = 115,188

Equalized dmg per second: 7199.25 adren vs 7605 shadow strike

Adrenaline > shadow strike easily due to debuffs not even close


You can go home now.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
You mathed the damage at 1k force power. On a rogue or dark hunter. and you have the nerve to emoji... lmao, trippin'

here's the math from Teth :

Rogue twf shadow strike- 450 mp; 40d6 +35 sneak; 30 seeker; 700 fsp

10.75 d4+3 +130 13-20x7 -> 761.39 avg -> 4188 + 1750 sneak + 1120 untyped imbue

haste boosted -> 2.5 attck/sec * 10 sec * 1120 untyped * 3.65 attacks = 102200

total shadow strike dmg over 15 seconds = 114,076


Adrenaline using fast/furious

10.75 d4+3 +130 2-20x6 -> 1292.84 -> 23109 + 5688

total adrenaline dmg over 16 seconds = 115,188

Equalized dmg per second: 7199.25 adren vs 7605 shadow strike

Adrenaline > shadow strike easily due to debuffs not even close


You can go home now.
I can't tell if the math is correct because you omit the formula... What does "1292.84 -> 23109 + 5688" mean? I assume that 1292 is (total base damage+seeker) * crit multiplier, which would lead to 1292 *2DS *5.5MP *3.25 adrenaline = 46189 damage
(then you subtract your average hit damage of ~5k, then divide the resulting ~40k by 8 seconds to get the dps, which would be roughly ~5k dps, not 7k) Or are you trying to count 3 adrenaline hits in 16 seconds to make it seem stronger than it actually is? :unsure:

Also, the assumption that you can maintain a constant 450 mp for adrenaline but somehow cant buff above 700 force spell power? :ROFLMAO:

Like I said in the post you quoted, limiting it to melee power only scaling would be more reasonable. Showing me unbuffed, non-optimal spell power math (that still shows it beating adrenaline anyway) is not convincing.
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
Or are you trying to count 3 adrenaline hits in 16 seconds to make it seem stronger than it actually is? :unsure:
Do you seriously not know how to use adrenalines? Would you like me to boot camp you? You can queue adrenaline to get 3 in 16 seconds. Clearly you are not fit for this discussion.

cant buff above 700 force spell power? :ROFLMAO:
Break down the build at 1k force power with which you mathed 3k a hit after doublestrike. Tell me how much you're giving up to gear, feat, filigree, and ap to get to 1k force. Why are you so bad at this? Just dont ever come into a dps discussion when you dont know what you are doing. woulkd save me time and would help people not be mislead by such faulty, weak, and poor conclusions.

It's like you have no hands and are trying to count on your fingers
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
Do you seriously not know how to use adrenalines? Would you like me to boot camp you? You can queue adrenaline to get 3 in 16 seconds. Clearly you are not fit for this discussion.
Then queue 1 adrenaline before Dark Imbuement as well for a fair comparison. That's a nice trick for exactly 16 second encounters... not a valid representation of real dps.
Break down the build at 1k force power with which you mathed 3k a hit after doublestrike. Tell me how much you're giving up to gear, feat, filigree, and ap to get to 1k force. Why are you so bad at this? Just dont ever come into a dps discussion when you dont know what you are doing. woulkd save me time and would help people not be mislead by such faulty, weak, and poor conclusions.

It's like you have no hands and are trying to count on your fingers
I know that 1k+ standing force spell power would require some sacrifices (which would probably be worth it since you are dropping adrenaline anyway)
I also know you don't have 450 standing melee power on a rogue. Boosted/buffed, maybe, but then 1k+ spell power is easy if you include those...

The point was that you are overestimating melee power and underestimating spell power (and potentially doing the math wrong) to come to a misleading conclusion. Its also bad practice to quote someone else's math without being able to explain it. For all I know Teth did the math correctly and you posted it wrong...
 
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Teth

Member
I can't tell if the math is correct because you omit the formula... What does "1292.84 -> 23109 + 5688" mean? I assume that 1292 is (total base damage+seeker) * crit multiplier, which would lead to 1292 *2DS *5.5MP *3.25 adrenaline = 46189 damage
(then you subtract your average hit damage of ~5k, then divide the resulting ~40k by 8 seconds to get the dps, which would be roughly ~5k dps, not 7k) Or are you trying to count 3 adrenaline hits in 16 seconds to make it seem stronger than it actually is? :unsure:

Also, the assumption that you can maintain a constant 450 mp for adrenaline but somehow cant buff above 700 force spell power? :ROFLMAO:

Like I said in the post you quoted, limiting it to melee power only scaling would be more reasonable. Showing me unbuffed, non-optimal spell power math (that still shows it beating adrenaline anyway) is not convincing.
Pretty hostile for being wrong. The 1292 is base dmg before any scaling. With the melee power and adrenaline scaling it it becomes 23109.515. Thats literally 1 adrenaline hit. Now factor in the sneak dmg getting scaled by mp and adrenaline since its the exact same sneak as shadow strike and your 1750 sneak dmg becomes 5688 sneak dmg. Now lets multiply both of those hits by 2 since you doublestrike and it becomes 57594 (rounded and added together). Now you factor in that you get 2 adrenalines per shadow strike ( i even normalized it using 240 seconds on the last line) it becomes 115188.

And you may be right maybe 700 spell power is low; so lets use 1000. Your imbue goes up to 140,525. Lets eliminate the sneak damage from both of these builds base dmg (even tho sneak scales with vuln, which is favoring adrenaline). We get 92438 for adrenaline every 16 seconds and 8376 base dmg and 140,525 imbue every 15 seconds for shadow strike.

Now we can subtract the base dmg of shadow from adrenaline and normalize the dmg per second so we can see the difference in dmg per second.
We get 5253.875 per second for adrenaline and 9368.33 per second for shadow strike.

So now all we need to do is use vuln + dust + shattered (which a twf rogue can easily slot) and we get 9362 for adren and 9368 for shadow strike. Woweee would you look at that? They are literally equal, and now you can factor in the fact that is going to be way more debuffs in play scaling adren even higher. This is literally best case scenario using a rogue twf for dark imbue, any other build wont have near the sneak die to try and compete with adrenaline.

Edit: And Rub is wrong and misinformed, its only 2 adrenalines per 16 seconds not 3. Idk why he saying that.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
Pretty hostile for being wrong. The 1292 is base dmg before any scaling. With the melee power and adrenaline scaling it it becomes 23109.515. Thats literally 1 adrenaline hit. Now factor in the sneak dmg getting scaled by mp and adrenaline since its the exact same sneak as shadow strike and your 1750 sneak dmg becomes 5688 sneak dmg. Now lets multiply both of those hits by 2 since you doublestrike and it becomes 57594 (rounded and added together). Now you factor in that you get 2 adrenalines per shadow strike ( i even normalized it using 240 seconds on the last line) it becomes 115188.

And you may be right maybe 700 spell power is low; so lets use 1000. Your imbue goes up to 140,525. Lets eliminate the sneak damage from both of these builds base dmg (even tho sneak scales with vuln, which is favoring adrenaline). We get 92438 for adrenaline every 16 seconds and 8376 base dmg and 140,525 imbue every 15 seconds for shadow strike.

Now we can subtract the base dmg of shadow from adrenaline and normalize the dmg per second so we can see the difference in dmg per second.
We get 5253.875 per second for adrenaline and 9368.33 per second for shadow strike.

So now all we need to do is use vuln + dust + shattered (which a twf rogue can easily slot) and we get 9362 for adren and 9368 for shadow strike. Woweee would you look at that? They are literally equal, and now you can factor in the fact that is going to be way more debuffs in play scaling adren even higher. This is literally best case scenario using a rogue twf for dark imbue, any other build wont have near the sneak die to try and compete with adrenaline.

Edit: And Rub is wrong and misinformed, its only 2 adrenalines per 16 seconds not 3. Idk why he saying that.
Ah, helps when I know what I'm looking at :)

However its still wrong, you still need to subtract your average hit damage from the adrenaline number, since that would have occured anyway and is not part of the dps added by adrenaline itself.

Also, vulnerability (and helpless) scales untyped damage, so the adrenaline would need many more prr debuffs (essentially every debuff) to catch up. Which is what I said to begin with and what I'm basing my opinion on. Adrenaline is already the strongest strike by a lot, the idea that it needs all this setup just to break even is unnecessary power creep.
 
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