Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.

[Bazgrim]

This really neuters the entire multiclass mechanic. There are enough restrictions in place without it to make multiclassing an interesting choice without it being overpowered and it would open up a lot of build variety.

 

[Buddha5440]

That is a perfectly valid opinion, but it is just an opinion.

I think caster levels SHOULD scale with character level instead of class levels, and I think the most appropriate way to do it is to implement the practiced spellcaster feat (adjusted for DDO).



Is that supposed to be an argument?



With a version of the practiced spellcaster feat it will be more like this:

It's like saying someone who started out as an apprentice electician will get better at it when they switch to an apprentice plumber and then continue on the 'Class' and become a master plumber while taking basic side jobs as an electrician...They are still an apprentice electrician and they have practiced and honed their old skills while not advancing their career.

1. It's not an opinion. It is how this game works. If you want something different, create your own game.

2. "DDO is NOT D&D" is not an argument. It is a statement of fact.

3. An apprentice does not become a master unless they specialize on one craft. They become a jack-of-all-trades while a master at none (there are exceptions but that is a very small minority, not the norm).

You do not have an open mind and simply try to put down opposition so I am done with this farce of a discussion.

Happy gaming and remember... IT"S JUST A FREAKIN GAME.

 

[Shear-buckler]

1. It's not an opinion. It is how this game works. If you want something different, create your own game.

2. "DDO is NOT D&D" is not an argument. It is a statement of fact.

3. An apprentice does not become a master unless they specialize on one craft. They become a jack-of-all-trades while a master at none (there are exceptions but that is a very small minority, not the norm).

You do not have an open mind and simply try to put down opposition so I am done with this farce of a discussion.

Happy gaming and remember... IT"S JUST A FREAKIN GAME.

That they should is an opinion, and that they do is a fact. That they do does not in itself mean that they should.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

You are telling the only person not fighting tooth and claw to preserve the status quo that they have a closed mind, peak irony

 

[Natashaelle]

Your opinion of what SHOULD be is just that, an opinion.

And so is yours, and it's one that most seem to quite straightforwardly disagree with.

 

[Shear-buckler]

And so is yours, and it's one that most seem to quite straightforwardly disagree with.

Yes and I never claimed otherwise. You are free to disagree. It is only a shame that you cant do it without gross misrepresentation, personal attacks and strawman arguments.

 

[Lacci]

I know I said I wouldn´t participate here anymore, but this had me laughing...

Demonstrably false. Caster level is a scalar for certain spells that is based on class level, enhancements, items and other things.
Class level is the number of level you have taken in a certain class.

"Demonstrably false" ??
Please demonstrate then where caster level and class level aren´t the same thing.

Demonstrably false. BAB affects to-hit, but is a very small part of it. If you set BAB to 0 for the purpose of cleave it barely affects the efficiency of it. If you set the DC of a spell to 0 it loses half or all of it's effect.

Again "demonstrably false" ??
Let me demonstrate then. BAB and a spells DC won´t ever be 0, but lets say it´s really low, like 1.
A fighter with BAB 1 and no other bonus uses his cleave attack against a monster with AC 25 - attack misses unless he rolls a natural 20.
A wizard casts a spell with DC of 1 at an enemy with a save of +25. Monster will resist the spell unless it rolls a natural 1.

Please demonstrate how this is not the same.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I know I said I wouldn´t participate here anymore, but this had me laughing...

When you say something like that you really should follow it up with something good, not two blatantly obvious mistakes...

"Demonstrably false" ??
Please demonstrate then where caster level and class level aren´t the same thing.

Class level is the number of level you have taken in a certain class. Caster level is a scalar for certain spells that is based on class level, enhancements, items and other things. Those are not equivalent mechanics and they are not always equivalent values.

Take any core of a sorc savant tree and your caster level is no longer the same as your class level. Demonstration done, your claim was false.

Again "demonstrably false" ??
Let me demonstrate then. BAB and a spells DC won´t ever be 0, but lets say it´s really low, like 1.
A fighter with BAB 1 and no other bonus uses his cleave attack against a monster with AC 25 - attack misses unless he rolls a natural 20.
A wizard casts a spell with DC of 1 at an enemy with a save of +25. Monster will resist the spell unless it rolls a natural 1.

Please demonstrate how this is not the same.

A fighter with BAB 1 and bonus adding up to 30 to hit using his cleave attack against a monster with AC 25 - attack hits unless he rolls a natural1.
A wizard casts a spell with DC of 1 at an enemy with a save of +25. Monster will resist the spell unless it rolls a natural 1. Demonstration done, your claim was false.

You seem to be conflating to-hit with BAB. That DC and BAB has the same effect in your cherry picked example does not mean they are equivalent.

 

[Lacci]

Class level is the number of level you have taken in a certain class. Caster level is a scalar for certain spells that is based on class level, enhancements, items and other things. Those are not equivalent mechanics and they are not always equivalent values.

Take any core of a sorc savant tree and your caster level is no longer the same as your class level. Demonstration done, your claim was false.

OK, I´ll grant you that. What I was saying is that if you have class levels in a spellcaster class, that´s also your caster level. But yes, it can be adjusted by abilities. It made little sense to me to include enhancement or feats in this comparison so I disregarded them.
Still that would be equivalent to class levels of for example a bard, who can increase his effective class level for bard songs through enhancements/feats.

A fighter with BAB 1 and bonus adding up to 30 to hit using his cleave attack against a monster with AC 25 - attack hits unless he rolls a natural1.
A wizard casts a spell with DC of 1 at an enemy with a save of +25. Monster will resist the spell unless it rolls a natural 1. Demonstration done, your claim was false.

You seem to be conflating to-hit with BAB. That DC and BAB has the same effect in your cherry picked example does not mean they are equivalent.

Now you take that +30 bonus out of thin air. I could just as well say that the wizard would get a +30 to his DC from equipment, enhancements etc.
If you compare the two, they are equivalent. And just like a wizard would not want to give up a +10 to his DCs, neither will any melee class by sacrificing their BAB.

 

[rabidfox]

What? 3 extra caster levels to a 17 druid/ 3x would not be in the ballpark of overpowered. You don't have to figure out every OP build, just the one.

<sigh> This is pretty much a waste of time. But you want a specific OP build with this idea...
5 FvS / 15 Whatever. Can put points in BoH tree and one would have maxed out heal SLA (and close wounds) and fully functional healing wall on par with any fully maxed level FvS.

The idea of things scaling off total level and not class specific level would be ripe for abuse; that you want a 1 wiz level to be meaningful doesn't change the fact that DDO players would find ways to break this kind of change to our advantage. (And I fully expect you'll claim my example isn't OP but it very much is)

 

[LunaCee]

Now you take that +30 bonus out of thin air. I could just as well say that the wizard would get a +30 to his DC from equipment, enhancements etc.
If you compare the two, they are equivalent. And just like a wizard would not want to give up a +10 to his DCs, neither will any melee class by sacrificing their BAB.

Other than some really early days in this game involving insanely high armor class blackguards that could only be hit by perfect BAB before bonuses ballooned to gargantuan sizes and before attack rolls against armor were refactored... I don't give much thought to BAB in this game. It no longer follows the same rules as pen and paper. As long as I get *most* of the potential BAB mostly for the attack speed scaling at breakpoints I'm fine. The to-hit portion is basically almost worthless. I've run plenty of 12/8 or 12/6/2 builds where only 12 levels of that were max BAB. It matters incredibly little in comparison to the bonuses dripping off the equipment. And the reason you want it is the attack speed scaling, not the couple percentage points of additional hit chance.

Melee to-hit is not directly comparable to caster DC casts. Melee still does plenty of damage regardless. Caster failing a check does nothing at all or whiffs hard on something with a 30 second enforced CD. You'd do better trying to draw a comparison to tactics DCs which actually is in the same ballpark of beat DC or do practically nothing.

 

[Lacci]

Melee to-hit is not directly comparable to caster DC casts. Melee still does plenty of damage regardless. Caster failing a check does nothing at all or whiffs hard on something with a 30 second enforced CD. You'd do better trying to draw a comparison to tactics DCs which actually is in the same ballpark of beat DC or do practically nothing.

Still they use the same game mechanic.
And just like the source of a wizards base DC for his spells is his class/caster level, the source for a fighters BAB is also his class levels.
Both increase with the classes primary attribute, feats, enhancements and equipment to get an end result high enough to hit/damage the monster.

 

[Shear-buckler]

OK, I´ll grant you that. What I was saying is that if you have class levels in a spellcaster class, that´s also your caster level. But yes, it can be adjusted by abilities. Still that would be equivalent to class levels of for example a bard, who can increase his effective class level for bard songs through enhancements/feats.

Well that is obvious. Thanks for admiting that you were wrong instead of doubling down. It makes for a better forum climate.

Now you take that +30 bonus out of thin air. I could just as well say that the wizard would get a +30 to his DC from equipment, enhancements etc.
If you compare the two, they are equivalent. And just like a wizard would not want to give up a +10 to his DCs, neither will any melee class by sacrificing their BAB.

It's not from thin air, it's from other to-hit bonuses. If the caster gets bonuses to their DC their DC is no longer 1 and the example no longer applies.Your reasoning makes no sense because you are conflating BAB with to-hit. You can get bonuses to to-hit without getting bonuses to BAB, but you by definition cant get bonuses to DC without getting bonuses to DC.

Still they use the same game mechanic.
And just like the source of a wizards base DC for his spells is his class/caster level, the source for a fighters BAB is also his class levels.
Both increase with the classes primary attribute, feats, enhancements and equipment to get an end result high enough to hit/damage the monster.

Again, you are conflating BAB with to-hit. BAB is not increased by attributes etc in the way you are describing it.

 

[Shear-buckler]

<sigh> This is pretty much a waste of time. But you want a specific OP build with this idea...
5 FvS / 15 Whatever. Can put points in BoH tree and one would have maxed out heal SLA (and close wounds) and fully functional healing wall on par with any fully maxed level FvS.

The idea of things scaling off total level and not class specific level would be ripe for abuse; that you want a 1 wiz level to be meaningful doesn't change the fact that DDO players would find ways to break this kind of change to our advantage. (And I fully expect you'll claim my example isn't OP but it very much is)

That sounds good, but it not exactly cheap to take 5 levels and your T5 to access a heal. Is the healing wall affected by caster levels though?

 

[rabidfox]

That sounds good, but it not exactly cheap to take 5 levels and your T5 to access a heal. Is the healing wall affected by caster levels though?

You want a core game change but don't seem to understand how people build stuff. And 5 levels is silly cheap when one would get the power of level 20 with a 5 splash under the proposed system...

 

[Shear-buckler]

You want a core game change but don't seem to understand how people build stuff. And 5 levels is silly cheap when one would get the power of level 20 with a 5 splash under the proposed system...

The power of level 20 for one ability for 5 levels, a tier 5 and 30+ aps. Certainly interesting.

 

[Lacci]

Again, you are conflating BAB with to-hit. BAB is not increased by attributes etc in the way you are describing it.

I´m starting to feel like Dame Alonsa fighting her windmill ...

We are now discussing semantics more than the issue itself and it seems like you try to deliberately misunderstand what I´m trying to say.
I know that BAB itself is not modified by attributes (well some actually do). It´s the BASE attack bonus, that is further modified to get some final to-hit bonus. That BASE is determined by class level.
In the same way, the "base" DC of many spells is determined by caster level. Although it´s not literally called a "BASE DC", it works the same way.

And now you want that the (multiclassed) wizard can use his character level instead while the fighter should stick with his lower BAB.
Which by the way is not what the OP was asking for.

 

[Buddha5440]

Keep in mind there is an "Ignore" option in these forums... I would suggest using it.

Happy gaming all .

 

[Shear-buckler]

I´m starting to feel like Dame Alonsa fighting her windmill ...

We are now discussing semantics more than the issue itself and it seems like you try to deliberately misunderstand what I´m trying to say.
I know that BAB itself is not modified by attributes (well some actually do). It´s the BASE attack bonus, that is further modified to get some final to-hit bonus. That BASE is determined by class level.
In the same way, the "base" DC of many spells is determined by caster level. Although it´s not literally called a "BASE DC", it works the same way.

And now you want that the (multiclassed) wizard can use his character level instead while the fighter should stick with his lower BAB.
Which by the way is not what the OP was asking for.

What an embarassing word sallad. You made blatently false claims and when you were called out on it you were smug and doubled down on it.

BAB and DC are not equivalent mechanics. Just accept it and move on.

Also, dc is typically not tied to caster level...

 

[Mand O'Lin]

Keep in mind there is an "Ignore" option in these forums... I would suggest using it.

Happy gaming all .

Already done!

 

[Shear-buckler]

Keep in mind there is an "Ignore" option in these forums... I would suggest using it.

Happy gaming all .

You put peope on ignore for backing a suggestion that you dont like, yet you call other people close minded. You keep bringing the irony

 

[Buddha5440]

Already done!

Good on ya