SSG: Time to reel in 18/1/1 builds

kmoustakas

kmoustakas

Scourge of Xaos
TavernBrawler said:
18/1/1 has no place in D&D and same in DDO. There are strict dual and multi-class rules for a reason and you have been careless about it. Capstones for most classes are p*ss-poor and outright trash for some of them. For once, do something about this and bring this game closer to D&D.
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It's all the ranger's fault. Remember the 'exploiter' ranger 18/rogue 1/monk 1 from 15 years ago?
 
The Narc

The Narc

Well-known member
Kimbere said:
This. I always lol at the "but pen and paper..." people.

Pen and paper rules and systems are great for... pen and paper.

They're reasonably decent for single player video games with a linear storyline and progression (i.e. Baldur's Gate, Solasta, etc.).

They're a bad fit for an online, persistent MMO with realtime combat, steady powercreep and a 150+ PL hamster wheel.
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DDO is not and will not be pen and paper and the people that ask for that are just being foolish, the demand for that playstyle is minimal and can be found in better pl es such as turn based games.

But as an aside, EXTREME MORTAL VOYAGE PERMADEATH guild on argonessen aims to try and mimic pen and paper style as closely as possible by restricting things within its ruleset to present an exclusively guild member only enviroment where this type of play is fully encouraged.

So I agree with Kimbere trying to change the whole game to fit these ideals is laughable, but finding a place where there are a group of people trying to push the enviroment in that direction by self imposed rules is the place to go if you truly are looking for anoen and paper feel.
 
Cmecu

Cmecu

Well-known member
TavernBrawler said:
18/1/1 has no place in D&D and same in DDO. There are strict dual and multi-class rules for a reason and you have been careless about it. Capstones for most classes are p*ss-poor and outright trash for some of them. For once, do something about this and bring this game closer to D&D.
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I do agree with you that the capstones are indeed junk for many of the classes.
Having a Multi Vial for Alchemist is a nice capstone.. seems worthy to get, then I look at capstones of say Cleric or FVS and shake my head. I know there are many classes who have horrible capstones that need a good revamp.

As for the 18/1/1 splits.. because of how sad the capstones are , people dont see any loss giving up the capstone. Of course its nice to grab the 1 level of another class to get in some extra feats or some ability. But these 1 level classes are abilities you gain that dont really give a character some kind of unbalanced crazy power.
Splash 1 level of rogue for traps, or barb for running speed, or monk.. or fighter for feats etc, warlock for aura. These things are not breaking builds.

Is it because you want to see DDO more aligned with Dungeons and Dragons Rule sets? I havent played pen and paper since 2nd edition, so I am not sure what the strict rules are.

That is one reason why I loved 2nd edition ( talking about pen and paper ) compared to later editions of D&D, back when I played we didnt bury our noses in rule books and debate with the DM about how fights should play out, or how every single movement required going to the book for reference.
We just played and had fun, and winged it. It made the game so much more fun not being so concise about everything. Im guessing that is how it is here with the split class. Free to express your character however you want it.
 
J

jwukane

Active member
Does anyone advocate for a reduction for themselves. No. It is to them a great idea or mantra that should just be. Like, "we should nerf all 18-1-1". Makes that person feel good to stick with their self imposed ideas. But would they want it reversed. Hell no.
I waited tables for 17 years, the people that say I don't tip, or I don't need to this much, or somebody else should pay them more. This is exactly this train of thought. If I came to your job and just because I thought it was a good idea or felt it should be this way and only paid you 50% or 0% of what you normally receive. Would you like that? If any argue for a Nerf, there character no matter what type must receive the same amount of nerf. Would you chose that? Prob not, because what happens to someone else doesn't matter. What is important is ME and my build and my play time and my income, not anyone else's. Rant/off
 
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Marshal_Lannes

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
The 20 MP from Warlock aura in Arcane Warrior isn't game-breaking. An easy solution is simply to make Arcane Warrior easier to achieve 20 MP without a Warlock aura. I think the greater imbalance issue is a 18/1/1 build that leverages Razor Claw. But, even then, it's like whack a mole. If you plug that leak, then the professional gamers will move off to another build that can achieve 500 melee power.
 
dur

dur

aka Cybersquirt
Well, they smashed tumble... (yup, still get messed up) so, sure - let's see how fast SSG can really kill this game.
 
C

CBDunk

Well-known member
TavernBrawler said:
18/1/1 has no place in D&D ... do something about this and bring this game closer to D&D.
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This is simply false. 18/1/1 has been a perfectly valid option for most of D&D's history. Certainly in the v3.5 ruleset that DDO is based on.

If anything, multiclassing in DDO is vastly MORE restricted than it is in most versions of D&D.
 
M

misterski

Well-known member
CBDunk said:
This is simply false. 18/1/1 has been a perfectly valid option for most of D&D's history. Certainly in the v3.5 ruleset that DDO is based on.

If anything, multiclassing in DDO is vastly MORE restricted than it is in most versions of D&D.
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Eh, not really. In 1st and 2nd edition multiclassing was limited to non-human races and the max level for a class was also determined by race (along with race restrictions on classes). These restrictions varied by campaign setting. Humans had to make do with dual classing which was more limiting than multiclassing at first but became much more powerful in the end.

One thing I absolutely loved about 3.x is that it removed these race restrictions but sadly removed dual classing by allowing humans to multiclass.
 
L

Lotoc

Well-known member
a big reason for why 18/1/1s are so prevalent for melees is the vistani capstone is just better than the majority of regular class enhancement tree capstones.
If capstones were overhauled to compete with Vistani's in raw power it would help a lot but vistani being a universal tree also means you can get that capstone alongside 1 splashes for trances or warlock aura/aw.

one thing though is vistani capstone should probably only grant 5% attack speed when using daggers/kukris and throwing daggers.
 
H

Hireling

Well-known member
Lotoc said:
a big reason for why 18/1/1s are so prevalent for melees is the vistani capstone is just better than the majority of regular class enhancement tree capstones.
If capstones were overhauled to compete with Vistani's in raw power it would help a lot but vistani being a universal tree also means you can get that capstone alongside 1 splashes for trances or warlock aura/aw.

one thing though is vistani capstone should probably only grant 5% attack speed when using daggers/kukris and throwing daggers.
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Or simple fix would be add 20 melee/ranged Power to a few of the weaker Capstones.
But I agree with you a lot.
 
Vox

Vox

Well-known member
Agreed with buffing some capstones.

Warchanter has probably the worst capstone in the game. Add a trance (multiselector) & reduce skaldic scream to 12 seconds.
 
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