To SSG; The endgame and the mountain we climb

[Shear-buckler]

If your approach is that everyone can have everything on day 1, that seems boring I'll go spend my money somewhere else. I like having the same toon that I started 17 years ago grow over time and be relevant today.

Dom's idea was open to (good) suggestion, though there were a lot of people, like yourself, that dismissed it over a very minor difference like you describe above. This is one of the reasons the game makes very little progress; the user base has no idea what they want, even though they write thousands of words here.

Again, the idea you are championing is the worst catch up mechanic known to man. It's indescribably aweful as a catch up mechanic and the only reason for it's conception is for "ubers" to respec easier/cheaper. If you want a reason why there is so little progress it's because people make self-serving suggestions and dresses them up as something else while being completely clueless about what a good suggestion for the "something else" would actually entail.

 

[Lazuli]

I find this topic very interesting. Seeing what "Veteran" players think of the systems they have seen grow up around them is interesting to me.

I come at this from the perspective of someone whom really only started playing the game in January of 2021. So I am 3 years in to "the Grind" of the TR train.

I was just looking at my Main last night and I am sitting at 47 Past Lives. I enjoy the leveling process and generally don't mind the fact that even after 3 years of 20+ hours a week I am still less that 30% of the way to Triple Completionist. I know I am not playing the most efficient way possible nor am I following the Meta with my builds, but I do enjoy the "slog". Most of my time is spent with Guildies and Friends chatting about anything & everything as we Adventure, Explore, and Slay. It doesn't even occur to me that this game could be repetitive or boring because while there are quests I do & do not enjoy, I like any quest that I get to do with a friend. I enjoy the idea of this toon living through all these experiences and being reincarnated but growing further. It's like the best choose your own adventure story ever.

I also have 4 toons parked at Cap for Raiding which I use to try out different play styles as the mood strikes me. Some have 1-3 past lives. Some are First life and I never plan to do more with them then let them sit there for raids.

So for me, I don't get the problem. You have a game that allows 1st life toons to be useful in "Endgame Raids" while at the same time allowing you to grind out even more power, beyond just usefulness, for what seems like at least 9-10 years and that number is still growing.

Seems to me that what people are wanting is to get all the benefits of having done everything on all of their toons without having done everything on all of their toons.

You don't "need" every past life, though you may "want" them. You will certainly become more powerful with the vast majority of them but anyone who thinks they are a neccessity to Tank, Heal, Trap, Buff, or DPS needs to learn to distinguish between Functional & Ideal.

Well, I find complaints like yours funny. If the argument is that PLs do not matter because they have little impact, you should not worry about making their acquisition a little easier. After all, there won't be any differences, right?

 

[Guntango]

You have 4 uber completionists so it's not surprising that you support a suggestion that is specifically made to help uber completionists respec. The catch-up part of the "guide" mechanic is a poor afterthought that was slapped on to create an illusion that the suggestion was for the benefits of others and not the ones who push it so hard. It would be a complete disaster for the game if implemented. The meta for "non-ubers" would be to play something else while waiting for the 3 day timer because redoing everything for your character every 3 days would get very old very fast buy it would still be the by far optimal way to progress your character.

I would even go so far as to say it's the worst catch up mechanic known to man.

It's ok if you're being intentionally obtuse, it's why we love you. The Guide only requires a brand newb to grind 27 lives to gain access to an express train that nets you 186 PLs. With it, a new player is only required to grind 14.5% of what we had to previously. You only have to cap 12 times to get 24 PLS and then do 3 more epics. Hardly the worst catch up mechanism ever, but if you have quality suggestions to make it better, please do. We don't expect you to, though.

I also have to say that if Dom removes the requirement to be a completionist and limits the maximum number of PLs per character that can be obtained this way, I would have voted in favor. The basic idea, as I say, is very good. The details not so much.

Why don't you upvote the idea and then offer your suggestions then, instead of resisting what could increase your enjoyment of the game?

 

[Guntango]

Again, the idea you are championing is the worst catch up mechanic known to man. It's indescribably aweful as a catch up mechanic and the only reason for it's conception is for "ubers" to respec easier/cheaper. If you want a reason why there is so little progress it's because people make self-serving suggestions and dresses them up as something else while being completely clueless about what a good suggestion for the "something else" would actually entail.

Wrong.

 

[Lazuli]

Why don't you upvote the idea and then offer your suggestions then, instead of resisting what could increase your enjoyment of the game?

I made the suggestion in the thread, if I remember correctly. But I cannot vote for the proposal as such, although the central idea is good.

 

[Guntango]

Well, I find complaints like yours funny. If the argument is that PLs do not matter because they have little impact, you should not worry about making their acquisition a little easier. After all, there won't be any differences, right?

So, new players (the ones you say your ideas would attract) are "funny" if they like the game as it is? It's odd that someone who has been here for such a short amount of time seems to get it more than you do.

 

[Guntango]

Sorry? How does my idea lead to having everything on day 1? That is completely impossible, since to share PLs you have to have three PLs of the class to share, and you only share one of those three PLs. You have to play to be able to share, and then those who have received that PL still have two PLS that they have to play because those cannot be shared.

One third of the PLs are shared. That means that the alts still have to play 2/3 of the PL individually. The suggestions for newcomers are only to give them an entry with more QoL and in any case give them a little push with their first character.

You didn't read my post correctly, Gunga.

You missed the if (first word, first sentence), which I used mostly because you were citing ideas you had years ago that I requested the link to so I could better understand them in their totality, but you did not provide. I also agreed that your horizontal idea (like you describe above) was something the devs should consider (see above, somewhere).

 

[Lazuli]

So, new players (the ones you say your ideas would attract) are "funny" if they like the game as it is? It's odd that someone who has been here for such a short amount of time seems to get it more than you do.

He is not a new player, 2021 lol, we are on 2024. And he is complaining about asking for a shortening of the grind, which by the way is not the same as eliminating it. It's ironic, yes, to say "you don't need PLs because their bonuses aren't necessary", after all if they aren't necessary, it doesn't matter if they help you get them, right?

Anyway, my proposal is to volunteer to share PLs. If you don't want to share them, don't talk to the NPC and that's it. It even makes it possible for you to share them with one alt and not another, as you wish. You shouldn't worry so much if other players make a different decision than you, after all... PLs aren't necessary, right?

To all this, if we consider someone who has been in the game for 3 years as a new player, I think it says a lot about the grind status of this game. Let's be serious, please.

 

[canicus]

Why is the population collapsing?

I know this is tangential to the topic at hand, but if you look at ddoaudit, the population is far from "collapsing" there has been a decline from the peak during covid for sure, but since early Sept. the trend has been an increase in population overall. I'm not saying you aren't finding it harder to find groups, or that many of the people you know haven't stopped playing, but the numbers are what they are. The population is about what it was pre-covid. It is very unfortunate that those gains did not stick, but that is likely due in some part to people returning to work and having less time to play. Since about July of '21 things have fluctuated but the floor hasn't changed much.

If I'm reading those numbers wrong, I am open to correction. Also, I am 100% in favor of finding a way to lessen the grind for new players and alts. I don't know what the best solution is, but the discussion needs to happen.

Sorry for the nit-pick post, but if we are hoping SSG is going to do something drastic because the are hemorrhaging players, the numbers don't seem to support that.

 

[Shear-buckler]

It's ok if you're being intentionally obtuse, it's why we love you. The Guide only requires a brand newb to grind 27 lives to gain access to an express train that nets you 186 PLs. With it, a new player is only required to grind 14.5% of what we had to previously. You only have to cap 12 times to get 24 PLS and then do 3 more epics. Hardly the worst catch up mechanism ever, but if you have quality suggestions to make it better, please do. We don't expect you to, though.

As I have said a couple of times in this thread, the only valid argument against grind reduction per say is that it leaves players with too little to do. Removing 85% of the grind most certianly achieves that. It's too much.
What's truly bad about the suggestion however is the "gameplay" it would lead to. The meta for "non-ubers" would be to play another game while waiting for the 3 day timer because redoing everything for your character every 3 days would get very old very fast but it would still be the by far optimal way to progress your character. It's abundantly clear that this suggestion is made by "ubers" who are only concerned with getting easier/free respecs.


My suggestion is to increase XP gain (see post #156 for details) and make past lives shared among characters on the server. That way you would still earn your progression by playing the game, not by clicking through endless dialoges.

 

[Lazuli]

You missed the if (first word, first sentence), which I used mostly because you were citing ideas you had years ago that I requested the link to so I could better understand them in their totality, but you did not provide. I also agreed that your horizontal idea (like you describe above) was something the devs should consider (see above, somewhere).

My suggestions are more or less in that post. If you are so interested in old posts, look for them in the old forum, and also in this forum. The important thing is the ideas, what use are the links?

Nor I am looking for any authorship in the ideas, many of those suggestions have been proposed by many people because they are common sense. I'm only giving suggestions that can help reduce the grind for alts and help new players have a smoother entry, I find the mere idea of taking over authorship or wanting recognition for it ridiculous.

 

[Guntango]

He is not a new player, 2021 lol, we are on 2024.

I thought you'd like that, it is where we're at though, I downloaded beta in 2006. lol

And he is complaining about asking for a shortening of the grind, which by the way is not the same as eliminating it.

I enjoy the leveling process and generally don't mind the fact that even after 3 years of 20+ hours a week I am still less that 30% of the way to Triple Completionist.

You see complaint, I see joy.

It's ironic, yes, to say "you don't need PLs because their bonuses aren't necessary", after all if they aren't necessary, it doesn't matter if they help you get them, right?

You don't need every PL to make an equally powerful toon as an uber completionist. Again, Dilemma is (relatively) newer, but right.

Anyway, my proposal is to volunteer to share PLs. If you don't want to share them, don't talk to the NPC and that's it. It even makes it possible for you to share them with one alt and not another, as you wish.

Yeah, I heard you. This is not a new concept, people want to share reaper points, too. Why not share sentience? One gem to rule them all! Maybe just cap our plat once and then all of our alts start with a couple mil? Sharing is caring...

You shouldn't worry so much if other players make a different decision than you, after all... PLs aren't necessary, right?

I only care what you do. And no, PLs are not necessary, but I had fun getting my first completionist and continue to have fun grinding reapers, so, for that, PLs make it easier. Subsequently, we have maxed toons that help us push raids, so that's fun, too.

To all this, if we consider someone who has been in the game for 3 years as a new player, I think it says a lot about the grind status of this game. Let's be serious, please.

I won't mention how many years I've played chess, then.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Well, I find complaints like yours funny. If the argument is that PLs do not matter because they have little impact, you should not worry about making their acquisition a little easier. After all, there won't be any differences, right?

Exactly. Either past lives are important and the grind should be reduced to make it more managable for new characters or past lives don't matter and they may aswell reduce the grind to make it more managable for new characters. Any position in between comes out to the exact same conclusion. The only valid argument against this is that the grind becomes too short.

 

[Lazuli]

I thought you'd like that, it is where we're at though, I downloaded beta in 2006. lol



You see complaint, I see joy.


You don't need every PL to make an equally powerful toon as an uber completionist. Again, Dilemma is (relatively) newer, but right.


Yeah, I heard you. This is not a new concept, people want to share reaper points, too. Why not share sentience? One gem to rule them all! Maybe just cap our plat once and then all of our alts start with a couple mil? Sharing is caring...


I only care what you do. And no, PLs are not necessary, but I had fun getting my first completionist and continue to have fun grinding reapers, so, for that, PLs make it easier. Subsequently, we have maxed toons that help us push raids, so that's fun, too.


I won't mention how many years I've played chess, then.

Just because you are a founder does not mean that having been in the game for several years is no longer a new player.

Been playing for less time than us =! new player Because of that rule of three, I am a new player and I have been here since 2011 lol

This dilemma is relatively new... sort of. It started to be a problem when SSG started multiplying the PLs exponentially. The well-designed heroic class grind is no problem. Later they added the iconic PLs, but they weren't mandatory for each character, so they didn't add much grind. Then they added the epic PLs, there were already starting to be a lot of PLs and unlike the heroic and iconic ones, they were all desirable for each character, but it was still manageable.

Then they added the racial PLs and the reaper grind in a very short time, and also the racial PLs were horribly backloaded. This is where people really started to get overwhelmed, and it's gotten worse because they've continued to add more PLs and additional grinds.

More is not really better. With these things you have to find a middle ground, a moderation, that provides people with goals to keep them entertained without overwhelming them like SSG has done.

And really, the proposals that have been made (not just mine, but those of many people) have been to *reduce* the grind. Not to eliminate it. You would still have a lot to do, a lot to play, a lot of progress to see. Some proposals, like mine, would even make that reduction optional for each alt, so if your joy is to enjoy each of those hundreds of PLs on each character, you can still do it. If you feel overwhelmed like many people, reducing it by 1/3 still gives you goals but not only will the mountain be as high, but your alts may be more ready for the end game sooner.

 

[DilemmaEnder]

What if you were only 3% of the way? Or is there any amount of grind for that goal that would be too large for you?
Would your experience be worse of if you were 60% of the way by this point? If all you care about is playing a quest with a friend why would you care if you had your past lives done?



That would be equally true if the grind was reduced.

I can only say that my personal experience has been 90% great.

Which is to say that 90% of the time I don't even consider how far along the TR train I am. 90% of the time the only thing I care about is where I am meeting my friends so I can hang out with them. Sometime we are in the mood for Ravenloft or Eveningstar, and sometimes we are in the mood for ANYTHING but x-y-z. Either way, its a social thing that happens to have the medium of a fantasy quest or adventure path.

So no, I don't think it would matter if I were 30% or 3% of the way done. Because the Triple Completionist is not the goal. It is the Abstract future, the nebulous End that I strive towards with no real care as to if I reach it. Cause it's the company on the journey that is the goal.

Then there is that other 10% of the time... Where I go "Man, I gotta grind this out or that out and this is the most efficient way to do that..." and then one of the guildies pulls me back and says hey, why play the game if its gonna feel like work. Don't get lost in the ideal buddy. Just enjoy.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I can only say that my personal experience has been 90% great.

Which is to say that 90% of the time I don't even consider how far along the TR train I am. 90% of the time the only thing I care about is where I am meeting my friends so I can hang out with them. Sometime we are in the mood for Ravenloft or Eveningstar, and sometimes we are in the mood for ANYTHING but x-y-z. Either way, its a social thing that happens to have the medium of a fantasy quest or adventure path.

So no, I don't think it would matter if I were 30% or 3% of the way done. Because the Triple Completionist is not the goal. It is the Abstract future, the nebulous End that I strive towards with no real care as to if I reach it. Cause it's the company on the journey that is the goal.

Then there is that other 10% of the time... Where I go "Man, I gotta grind this out or that out and this is the most efficient way to do that..." and then one of the guildies pulls me back and says hey, why play the game if its gonna feel like work. Don't get lost in the ideal buddy. Just enjoy.

The point I am trying to get at is that if it doesn't matter if it's 30% or 3%, why would it matter if it was 90%? Or even 100%? You can have a social experience without getting a past life.

 

[Onyxia2016]

The way I see it, SSG has painted themselves in a corner. There is a limited number of quests in each level bracket, more in some levels than other but still limited. Since they can not double or quadruple the number of quests they have the TR train so the quests are replayed over and over.
This is the game as it stands now.

If they increase the rate at which one levels, this would get players to the ultimate end of the game (all past lives, epic destinies, etc...).
At this point players will start to drop off. I mean, how many times can you run the end game content before you are sick of it. All you have to do is look at running the Korthos quests, which I am sure most veteran players are so sick of.

I force myself to run less than optimum XP quest just to change it up a bit, otherwise I would get sick of playing.

So breaking the game down to its basic elements.
Fixed number of quests.
Fixed number of classes/races
Fixed number of epic destinies
Gear limited to best in slot so once farmed, that's it

How do you keep players coming back given these limits?
In the pass SSG adds new races/classes and some new quests/areas. These just extend the current model. Once those are played a few dozen times we are right back where we started. Look at Vecna, great when it was released but the novelty is wearing off now.

I do not have the answers that keeps players engaged for the long haul (what SSG wants) and is fresh and new (what the players want).

For my own sanity I stopped focusing on end game. Now I play whenever class/race combo the best I can, maybe try some of the odd builds or just make something up as I go and see how it works out. Make a THF (quarterstaff) Barb/Sorcerer (think Shaman) and see how it does.
Otherwise it is playing the meta class/race combo running highest xp per minute, predetermined quests, to lvl32 then rinse/repeat. That just sounds depressing to me.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

I think more people in this thread should play hardcore. Hardcore begins with the basis that everyone starts equal and by that starting point it means people end up playing D&D to have fun not worrying about a hill to climb. I cringe when I hear things like I have to get back on the wheel or knock out X number of past lives. What part of that sounds like fun? Many have allowed themselves to fall into the keeping up with the Jones trap. Running on R4 with stakes is a lot more fun than zerging R10s. Try it and see for yourself.

 

[Guntango]

You can have a social experience without getting a past life.

You can have both, and fun, too, if you do it right.

 

[Shear-buckler]

If they increase the rate at which one levels, this would get players to the ultimate end of the game (all past lives, epic destinies, etc...).
At this point players will start to drop off.

Yeah that's the key question. Can you lower the grind without making players run out of things to do? Personally I think there is so much grind in the game that you can easily reduce it by 30%+ without facing that risk.
New grind is added all the time with new races, classes and archetypes, and when we get legendary reincarnation there will be whole other layer to grind out.