JaynChar2019
Well-known member
we were on sarlona when it happened
U60 Lammania Preview 1 - Dungeon Alert Changes
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Boondocks Mike
Well-known member
In the current context of the game I do not mind red DA being more dangerous but it is extremely important that quests where sudden DA jumps occur are fixed. Also, any time all mobs move faster or all players move slower melees tend to be punished more than caster and ranged builds.
Agree with this whole post. Only thing I'd add or change is increasing enemy HP to compensate for reduced mob density doesn't necessarily make fighting more engaging. I'd like to see more CC, special attacks, spells used by mobs.
Honestly these are probably more effective deterrents.
Agree with this whole post. Only thing I'd add or change is increasing enemy HP to compensate for reduced mob density doesn't necessarily make fighting more engaging. I'd like to see more CC, special attacks, spells used by mobs.
Honestly these are probably more effective deterrents.
JaynChar2019
Well-known member
5
I love these ideas! I would also make traps that will almost or insta kill even tanks if they are not disabled based on a new trap roll that gets proced in dungeon alert. That would definitely help with zerging.
nobodynobody1426
Well-known member
As others have said, these are good changes with the caveat that there be effort to address quests that DA players without it being the players fault. Inferno is one of the worst offenders with monsters not only aggroing through walls, but also between Normal / Inferno layers. You can walk into an empty room and aggro the entire pack of mobs on the other side of the teleporter and they stay aggroed the entire dungeon.
Arkat
Founder & Super Hero
That's great, but this thread is about the changes to Dungeon Alert on Lamannia.
I guess I'm not sure how your experience on a Live server (Sarlona) relates to the differing conditions of the preview server (Lamannia).
Can you maybe bridge the two?
Graceana
Stealer of Souls
Can I ask - what is the purpose of dungeon alert (question for the devs, asking how they are seeing it), and can your aims be accomplished in ways that are more incentives instead of punishments and still allow for varying playstyles? The changes to make dungeon alert worse and worse has driven some people from the game that really enjoy speedrunning, and it generally sucks for newer players who join LFMs with more experienced players as well. I don't think we should design processes in a game that make people miserable, and I would assume we're in agreement there. DA has been annoying as long as it's existed, and I find it difficult to believe that there aren't other ways to accomplish whatever the goal is.
And if the goal is "make people spend more time in quests," well, that's...a bad goal, and there are better ways to do that anyway.
And if the goal is "make people spend more time in quests," well, that's...a bad goal, and there are better ways to do that anyway.
TedSandyman
Well-known member
PUNISHING PLAYERS WITH TOUGHER MONSTERS WONT WORK.
These changes wont work, in fact, they will make things worse. You are trying to slow down the players by making the dungeons tougher and that just has never worked. Nukers are too strong and will simply kill the newer monsters just as quickly and if you make it hard enough to affect the nukers you will kill everyone else.
Some will relish the challenge. And will zerg just to get tested. When the zerger sees others die, it will reinforce in their minds how great they are compared to everyone else.
The zerger usually isn't the one who gets attacked. He is far ahead of the mobs. New mobs see him and become active. And once they start chasing, they are behind. It is almost always the followers who get in trouble.
Making the mobs hit harder doesn't do a single thing to stop that first zerger.
And lets be honest, most people who zerg like this are of the opinion that no one else in the game matters. They believe that everyone should be able to handle it and if those followers cant keep up or keep themselves alive, they shouldn't be playing.
There are certain classes that these changes will affect more. The least affected will be the casting nuker. So even if some zerging is stopped, these new rules, by not really affecting certain classes, will not stop those over-powered classes from zerging. Even if a nuker gets surrounded, a few quick casts will level everything near. If you don't have wide aoe attacks that kill instantly you are in trouble. The farther you get away from aoe-instakill, the more these changes will affect you. So some classes will still zerg with impunity. These changes simply punish everyone else.
These changes will be especially chilling in hardcore. I already see people die in hardcore in wilderness area zerg situations. These changes will make it almost impossible to play hardcore where dungeons are in outdoor areas. You are already putting a lot of trust in your fellow party members. Already zerging kills. In hardcore, one life is all you get. Yet people still do zerg. With these new rules people will die A LOT in hardcore and people will simply stop playing. I know I will be very wary of any party I join there.
The other real issue with all these changes is that I believe it will make the lag worse once an alert does happen. You are adding much more to the behaviour of individual monsters. Which means when more of them are active there is more code being run not less.
PUNISHING PLAYERS WITH TOUGHER MONSTERS WONT WORK.
SO WHAT WILL WORK?
No matter how bad you try to punish zergers by making the dungeon harder you wont succeed. Zergers will always be selfish in their motivations and wont care if those behind die.
If you want to fix the problem, you have to hit zergers where it matters most to them. You have to hit them in the XP/time calculation. You have to slow down the completion time. I know that is the plan with tougher monsters but that approach, like everything in this game, really hits some harder than others and lets others, the worst offenders in my opinion, off scott free.
Some ideas that DON'T require harder monsters and therefore affect everyone equally.
But the one thing I can guarantee is PUNISHING PLAYERS WITH TOUGHER MONSTERS WONT WORK.
These changes wont work, in fact, they will make things worse. You are trying to slow down the players by making the dungeons tougher and that just has never worked. Nukers are too strong and will simply kill the newer monsters just as quickly and if you make it hard enough to affect the nukers you will kill everyone else.
Some will relish the challenge. And will zerg just to get tested. When the zerger sees others die, it will reinforce in their minds how great they are compared to everyone else.
The zerger usually isn't the one who gets attacked. He is far ahead of the mobs. New mobs see him and become active. And once they start chasing, they are behind. It is almost always the followers who get in trouble.
Making the mobs hit harder doesn't do a single thing to stop that first zerger.
And lets be honest, most people who zerg like this are of the opinion that no one else in the game matters. They believe that everyone should be able to handle it and if those followers cant keep up or keep themselves alive, they shouldn't be playing.
There are certain classes that these changes will affect more. The least affected will be the casting nuker. So even if some zerging is stopped, these new rules, by not really affecting certain classes, will not stop those over-powered classes from zerging. Even if a nuker gets surrounded, a few quick casts will level everything near. If you don't have wide aoe attacks that kill instantly you are in trouble. The farther you get away from aoe-instakill, the more these changes will affect you. So some classes will still zerg with impunity. These changes simply punish everyone else.
These changes will be especially chilling in hardcore. I already see people die in hardcore in wilderness area zerg situations. These changes will make it almost impossible to play hardcore where dungeons are in outdoor areas. You are already putting a lot of trust in your fellow party members. Already zerging kills. In hardcore, one life is all you get. Yet people still do zerg. With these new rules people will die A LOT in hardcore and people will simply stop playing. I know I will be very wary of any party I join there.
The other real issue with all these changes is that I believe it will make the lag worse once an alert does happen. You are adding much more to the behaviour of individual monsters. Which means when more of them are active there is more code being run not less.
PUNISHING PLAYERS WITH TOUGHER MONSTERS WONT WORK.
SO WHAT WILL WORK?
No matter how bad you try to punish zergers by making the dungeon harder you wont succeed. Zergers will always be selfish in their motivations and wont care if those behind die.
If you want to fix the problem, you have to hit zergers where it matters most to them. You have to hit them in the XP/time calculation. You have to slow down the completion time. I know that is the plan with tougher monsters but that approach, like everything in this game, really hits some harder than others and lets others, the worst offenders in my opinion, off scott free.
Some ideas that DON'T require harder monsters and therefore affect everyone equally.
- Doors don't open on a dungeon alert.
- Adventure can't complete for 5 minutes after a red alert was generated.
- Adventure immediately fails if a red alert is generated.
- You lose XP for the amount of time in an alert situation.
But the one thing I can guarantee is PUNISHING PLAYERS WITH TOUGHER MONSTERS WONT WORK.
Melkizadek
Active member
And reapers... If reapers are in the next room, the whole room aggros before you even get to it.
I managed to get an instant Red Alert by attacking a Single Reaper at the end of a tunnel in the Library of Threnal Quest Chain, there was obviously some mobs hiding around the reaper, but unbeknownst to me there was a whole slew of Baby Glass Spiders, relatively easy to kill, but absolutely no fun to get an instant Red Alert in this situation.
Another case where I've seen Instant Red Alerts is the First quest of the Keep on the Borderlands, right at the entrance of the quest, also no fun.
I would suggest reducing the range at which mobs can aggro and not allow mobs to chain aggro (eg mob a gets attacked, Mob pack B sees it, calls in Mob pack C, who calls Mob pack D, which causes instant Red alert.
Limiting the Number of mobs that can be aggroed at once would seem to solve the problems better than the punitive Dungeon alert System:
Perhaps changing it so that mobs over a certain threshold that should have been aggroed are instead not aggroed and made invulnerable for a short period instead, with the addition of slowing player movement speed to a crawl at Red Alert to prevent zerging.
Another case where I've seen Instant Red Alerts is the First quest of the Keep on the Borderlands, right at the entrance of the quest, also no fun.
I would suggest reducing the range at which mobs can aggro and not allow mobs to chain aggro (eg mob a gets attacked, Mob pack B sees it, calls in Mob pack C, who calls Mob pack D, which causes instant Red alert.
Limiting the Number of mobs that can be aggroed at once would seem to solve the problems better than the punitive Dungeon alert System:
Perhaps changing it so that mobs over a certain threshold that should have been aggroed are instead not aggroed and made invulnerable for a short period instead, with the addition of slowing player movement speed to a crawl at Red Alert to prevent zerging.
So let me see if I get this right.
Dungeon Alert serves as a warning system that we are aggroing more mobs than the server can handle.
When this happens the mobs already get a bunch of buffs (see https://ddowiki.com/page/Dungeon_Alert) making them harder to kill. With theses changes you want to improve on these buffs.
So the solution to having to many active monsters is to make them harder to kill and reduce our ability to kill them.
I can't be the only one to see how absurd this is right?
Dungeon Alert serves as a warning system that we are aggroing more mobs than the server can handle.
When this happens the mobs already get a bunch of buffs (see https://ddowiki.com/page/Dungeon_Alert) making them harder to kill. With theses changes you want to improve on these buffs.
So the solution to having to many active monsters is to make them harder to kill and reduce our ability to kill them.
I can't be the only one to see how absurd this is right?
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The Narc
Well-known member
Its not absurd, just stop the behaviour of activating too many mobs.
What absurd is people thinking i will do whatever i want even if it affects all the other people on the server negatively and then think that they shouldnt be punished for their negative behaviour.
DA has been doing that for 15 years and lag hasn't stopped it's obviously not working.
Coffey
Well-known member
I think that any of the penalties you have suggested could work only if the False DA are fixed and high mob counts, spawn rates and placements adjusted. This cant be done halve fast though.
People setting off DA on purpose will still ruin a good time though. People setting DA off by accident could be another issue.
Exp Bonuses should be enough to satisfy old Exp/Min expectations.
I will say that i do enjoy zerging with some of my characters (not at others expense though
) and i will miss that.
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The Narc
Well-known member
This why the devs have said they need to adjust it, becaus eit hasnt been kept up to the atabdard of the game today.
The Narc
Well-known member
The devs have said they will be adjusting these situations to ensure people are not penalized for good play.
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Monkey_Archer
Well-known member
While I'm not opposed to making red alert more impactful, I have a feeling this is slightly missing the mark.
Shouldn't the goal be to incentivize players to stop and kill the mobs rather then have the player end up dead?
Doesn't a dead player resurrecting at a shrine in a red alerted quest just leave the lag causing mobs active longer, thereby causing more lag?
I think the goal should be more focused on forcing players to kill the mobs instead:
1) Increasing monster movement speed is fine.
4) Preventing permanent cc of mobs is fine.
2) Change this to a defensive buff for red+ bosses only. ie prevent quest completion until the alert is dealt with.
3) Change this to an increase movement penalty for players on red alert. Disable wings/abundant step, automatic slow of 30% that stacks with the -90% when hit or in contact with mobs. ie force them to stop running past mobs and deal with the alert.
JaynChar2019
Well-known member
just saying it proced in a raid and shouldn't have so maybe they should look into that if they are doing updates?
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