U60 Lammania Preview 1 - XP System Adjustments

[flux]

Not "encourage" as in give more exp, I mean "not punish."
As it is, you pretty much won't be able to skip anything... or much of anything. What is even the point of stealthing at that stage?
For like, the few missions where you have to, that nobody likes to run?

 

[Thorntoe]

Here is my 'trying to be helpful' suggestion:
First time bonus is reduced, not eliminated.
Bravery bonus is reduced, not eliminated.
Aggression, Onslaught and Conquest have been increased.
At Conquest it is not xp neutral, but a slight increase,.
If you do not reach Aggression, potential xp would be lower than the current system.
I would be happy to see Aggression, Onslaught and Conquest increased more so the incentive to eliminate mobs is greater, but since the original proposal was xp neutral, I tried to keep it close to neutral.

As you can see from the image (if it posts as a link, I'm hoping some helpful soul will correctly post the image, since I've never been able to master that), the Aggression, Onslaught and Conquest bonuses for 2nd run are all 10% less than those same 1st run bonuses, but the bonuses for the 2nd run are still higher than the current.

The reasoning is this: Conquest shouldn't be the goal, but instead an option. The Dev's should be focused more on reducing players running past mobs. Moving the bonuses into Aggression, Onslaught and Conquest gives and incentive to eliminate mobs along the way, without requiring Conquest. The second run bonuses are reduced, because, well, it's the second run.

https://imgur.com/a/7uzoPa3

 

[The Narc]

1) Take the effort to go through EVERY SINGLE quest in the game and make sure that conquest is achievable just by killing all the monsters on the primary route through the quest. This would probably be a very large amount of work and is almost certainly not going to be done perfectly.

If this were to be the option which would be a long project to update old quests, and easy to do with newly designed quests, please spread out the mobs and make manynof them stationery so they dont group up into big groups ready to be instakilles by AOE A Bombs, this will also create the solution the devs are looking for which is crushing the speed runs while runningsoveriegn xp pots. If the casters chose to zerg by the mobs make sure the DA makes the boss completely unkillable and also lock the area down with a dimensional anchor.

 

[Scrag]

Fourth step, Add a First Time Dungeon Awareness Bonus (name is questionable). This will calculate for individuals rather than the entire party.

This whole related block of text is very interesting. However, its just like DA in reverse, and if the supporting system can't handle DA as it is, then it is unlikely to be much better adding this awareness feature in.

I want to reiterate though that I really like this whole idea.

 

[TherioZero]

maybe if they based onslaught on basic run thru from begining to end without all the extra side places and scale it a little better and maybe do an oposition as well like only 30 kill oly 20 kill and only 10 kill so the stealth toons can still play the style they wand and be able to obtain xp bonus

 

[jwel]

I think this would be a wrong way to go. We're supposed to be heroes, not genocidal maniacs.

A. Heroes kill the monsters. It's the job description. B. This would help balance quests payout. Quests with way too many mobs don't get run because they take longer. Now it is just as worthwhile to run them as lower density quests. This is quite litterally the best way to go about it.

 

[Scrag]

Here is my 'trying to be helpful' suggestion:

https://imgur.com/a/7uzoPa3

I think this is workable. Onslaught isn't TOO bad to get, and aggression is pretty easy. This is something I could agree to.

 

[The Narc]

A. Heroes kill the monsters. It's the job description. B. This would help balance quests payout. Quests with way too many mobs don't get run because they take longer. Now it is just as worthwhile to run them as lower density quests. This is quite litterally the best way to go about it.

Love it and well spoken, we need more of the supporters to come to the forums and soeak up so the devs hear all the voices.

Jwel stay strong in your convictions there is a group of folks here that will go on the attack to try and drive you off, they have been trying to dominate the forums for years with a conform or be cast out approach. Dont fear you have supporters.

 

[Arcanaverse]

To those suggesting and to devs that may be considering moving to a lower bonus tier instead of conquest.

I still don't think it'll solve the underlying problem but in fact makes it worse.

Most players/quests don't offer an opportunity to run past mobs, build up alert, and then allow the player escapes. The more likely issue is that players will kite a large number of monsters into a single area and then eliminate them all at once. Causing a spike not only from Dungeon Alert, but from the player using AOE effects to put a strain on the effect que to eliminate them.

Any suggestion that aims at us defeating more monsters isn't going to change how and when we defeat monsters. In fact, by putting more emphasis on getting a higher total... in my opinion... will only lead to more issues not less.

 

[Rex_Havok]

unsure if this is anything but a make work project. BUT if u want to fix something how about resetting bonus on epic tr's. its a drag to do epic reincarnates without bonuses. And can we have a tr option to go from 30 to new without the middle step of releveling an epic to 20 then do the herioc tr.

 

[Scrag]

he more likely issue is that players will kite a large number of monsters into a single area and then eliminate them all at once. Causing a spike not only from Dungeon Alert, but from the player using AOE effects to put a strain on the effect que to eliminate them.

This. I posted this exact thing in the DA thread.

 

[KylerrTheMajty]

Easy solutions cut all monster number by 50% or even 60% and make remaining stronger

 

[The Narc]

To those suggesting and to devs that may be considering moving to a lower bonus tier instead of conquest.

I still don't think it'll solve the underlying problem but in fact makes it worse.

Most players/quests don't offer an opportunity to run past mobs, build up alert, and then allow the player escapes. The more likely issue is that players will kite a large number of monsters into a single area and then eliminate them all at once. Causing a spike not only from Dungeon Alert, but from the player using AOE effects to put a strain on the effect que to eliminate them.

Any suggestion that aims at us defeating more monsters isn't going to change how and when we defeat monsters. In fact, by putting more emphasis on getting a higher total... in my opinion... will only lead to more issues not less.

Not if the dungeon alert has an inpactnon how much damage can be done by AOE A Bombers, if the DC of the spell save goes down or the movs get a boost to theri saves, the mor wmobs there are the bigger the disaster it can be for the casters using this tactic.

Devs please add this to the changes for levels of Dungeon Alerts

 

[Torc]

I think some dev feedback addressing all the concerns brought up here would be great.

There are some very real and legitimate issues brought up with this plan.

Yep! We are reading, and looking at these dungeons that people are posting about.

So when we started looking at this we knew we'd have some "but I don't get conquest in this dungeon" problems. I eluded to this with Castle Ravenloft and the Vault of Night Dragon quests which have had their conquest thresholds adjusted in this build. We hoped these would be a few dozen outliers we could just fix.

We didn't expect not getting conquest to be presented as "really common" in general. If no conquest bonus is more of the rule than the exception this plan will not do! Us devs tend to ramble out into the optional wings when we play I guess....

Clarify a few things...

1> Our lag problems are less about fighting monsters, then running from monsters and leaving them far behind. The bottle neck is in the path system doing long paths as the player gets far away. Ergo, not wanting to be bothered with the monsters at all feeds into that.

2> As has been pointed out this plan was all stick and no carrot. We are looking at some combination of making conquest thresholds more forgiving and/or upping the conquest/onslaught/aggression bonuses a bit further as some have suggested. We also may punt until we can do more elaborate incentive systems instead.

2> We really want killing monsters to be a worth awhile activity. I understand some folks have perfected some play patterns that avoid such a thing, and we don't really want to impact your fun, but we do want the conquest option to have a certain attraction as well because so much of our systems and content do focus on combat. In a perfect world these both would be perceived as equally valid options. In our current world we feel that killing monsters has dropped a little lower in the play patterns than is probably wise.

4> Specifics are very helpful in regards to the conquest bonus issues! Dungeons you typically play, how you play them, and what level of conquest you get, how many kills, etc. What Optional are worth while? How you make the choices you do?

-T

 

[rabidfox]

4> Specifics are very helpful in regards to the conquest bonus issues! Dungeons you typically play, how you play them, and what level of conquest you get, how many kills, etc. What Optional are worth while? How you make the choices you do?

-T

Typically, any optional that is on the path between the start and finish line will get hit. Anything off that path isn't worth it. I have XP pots ticking so spending more time to the side isn't worth it. I leave a path of dead mobs when I go from A to B (even green alerts are rare for me outside quests that just spike from nothing to high alert). Kill bonus XP levels are all over the place as a result. XP pots are expensive and worth more than any side reward.

 

[Aebro Komatme]

Overall, this feels like such an intentional money grab, it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

I’ve been looking for something (hell, anything) from SSG to justify renewing my VIP when it expires. This update not only does just the opposite, it makes me want to curtail ALL my spending on this game.

Not joking when I say that the last time I felt as disgusted was the day I quit smoking cold turkey (and for good) after 30 years.

 

[Wini]

These changes are so bad, i feel like stop playing for a while.

The last thing we need is something to slow our progress.

 

[KylerrTheMajty]

Yep! We are reading, and looking at these dungeons that people are posting about.

So when we started looking at this we knew we'd have some "but I don't get conquest in this dungeon" problems. I eluded to this with Castle Ravenloft and the Vault of Night Dragon quests which have had their conquest thresholds adjusted in this build. We hoped these would be a few dozen outliers we could just fix.

We didn't expect not getting conquest to be presented as "really common" in general. If no conquest bonus is more of the rule than the exception this plan will not do! Us devs tend to ramble out into the optional wings when we play I guess....

Clarify a few things...

1> Our lag problems are less about fighting monsters, then running from monsters and leaving them far behind. The bottle neck is in the path system doing long paths as the player gets far away. Ergo, not wanting to be bothered with the monsters at all feeds into that.

2> As has been pointed out this plan was all stick and no carrot. We are looking at some combination of making conquest thresholds more forgiving and/or upping the conquest/onslaught/aggression bonuses a bit further as some have suggested. We also may punt until we can do more elaborate incentive systems instead.

2> We really want killing monsters to be a worth awhile activity. I understand some folks have perfected some play patterns that avoid such a thing, and we don't really want to impact your fun, but we do want the conquest option to have a certain attraction as well because so much of our systems and content do focus on combat. In a perfect world these both would be perceived as equally valid options. In our current world we feel that killing monsters has dropped a little lower in the play patterns than is probably wise.

4> Specifics are very helpful in regards to the conquest bonus issues! Dungeons you typically play, how you play them, and what level of conquest you get, how many kills, etc. What Optional are worth while? How you make the choices you do?

-T

its not about play patterns , its just bad desinge of guest where you put a lot of mobs in every room , just make less mobs but stronger.
it obvious that ppl will skip 100+ mobs bc its just boring to kill them...

especially when you dont have aoe , or your an assassin who can kill max 2 mobs with assasinate and group of mobs is like 10 and after you kill those 2 all other will immediately aggro

 

[The Narc]

Yep! We are reading, and looking at these dungeons that people are posting about.

So when we started looking at this we knew we'd have some "but I don't get conquest in this dungeon" problems. I eluded to this with Castle Ravenloft and the Vault of Night Dragon quests which have had their conquest thresholds adjusted in this build. We hoped these would be a few dozen outliers we could just fix.

We didn't expect not getting conquest to be presented as "really common" in general. If no conquest bonus is more of the rule than the exception this plan will not do! Us devs tend to ramble out into the optional wings when we play I guess....

Clarify a few things...

1> Our lag problems are less about fighting monsters, then running from monsters and leaving them far behind. The bottle neck is in the path system doing long paths as the player gets far away. Ergo, not wanting to be bothered with the monsters at all feeds into that.

2> As has been pointed out this plan was all stick and no carrot. We are looking at some combination of making conquest thresholds more forgiving and/or upping the conquest/onslaught/aggression bonuses a bit further as some have suggested. We also may punt until we can do more elaborate incentive systems instead.

2> We really want killing monsters to be a worth awhile activity. I understand some folks have perfected some play patterns that avoid such a thing, and we don't really want to impact your fun, but we do want the conquest option to have a certain attraction as well because so much of our systems and content do focus on combat. In a perfect world these both would be perceived as equally valid options. In our current world we feel that killing monsters has dropped a little lower in the play patterns than is probably wise.

4> Specifics are very helpful in regards to the conquest bonus issues! Dungeons you typically play, how you play them, and what level of conquest you get, how many kills, etc. What Optional are worth while? How you make the choices you do?

-T

Conquest bonus issues;

Please dont add conquest bonus acailability to all the short quests that dont have it already in the sharn, feywild, saltmarsh, isle of dread. You will make alot more money on sovereign xp pots.

If yiur trying to punish those trying to run from mobs, yiu must consider the AOE casters tryimg to round up bigger groups of mobs for AOE and there must be an appropriate costly punishment for such actions(ie give the mobs bigger blanket absorptions and higher saving throws)

 

[Lotoc]

Yep! We are reading, and looking at these dungeons that people are posting about.

So when we started looking at this we knew we'd have some "but I don't get conquest in this dungeon" problems. I eluded to this with Castle Ravenloft and the Vault of Night Dragon quests which have had their conquest thresholds adjusted in this build. We hoped these would be a few dozen outliers we could just fix.

We didn't expect not getting conquest to be presented as "really common" in general. If no conquest bonus is more of the rule than the exception this plan will not do! Us devs tend to ramble out into the optional wings when we play I guess....

Clarify a few things...

1> Our lag problems are less about fighting monsters, then running from monsters and leaving them far behind. The bottle neck is in the path system doing long paths as the player gets far away. Ergo, not wanting to be bothered with the monsters at all feeds into that.

2> As has been pointed out this plan was all stick and no carrot. We are looking at some combination of making conquest thresholds more forgiving and/or upping the conquest/onslaught/aggression bonuses a bit further as some have suggested. We also may punt until we can do more elaborate incentive systems instead.

2> We really want killing monsters to be a worth awhile activity. I understand some folks have perfected some play patterns that avoid such a thing, and we don't really want to impact your fun, but we do want the conquest option to have a certain attraction as well because so much of our systems and content do focus on combat. In a perfect world these both would be perceived as equally valid options. In our current world we feel that killing monsters has dropped a little lower in the play patterns than is probably wise.

4> Specifics are very helpful in regards to the conquest bonus issues! Dungeons you typically play, how you play them, and what level of conquest you get, how many kills, etc. What Optional are worth while? How you make the choices you do?

-T

Just a quick example, The Crucible which is a popular quest for big exp payouts and completely lacks aggression/onslaught/conquest bonuses so the proposed change would have just nerfed the EXP of the quest entirely.

Personally I feel Conquest is effectively similar to Ransack - it SHOULD be a reward for obtaining a majority. Aggression should be about the point you reach for following the critical path and killing each enemy you encounter as a standard.
It's frankly not a great idea to move the standard exp into a bonus that simply doesn't exist for multiple quests, in fact the renowned slog of leveling 1-3 (which often gets skipped with exp gems) gets worse with this as quests in this level range often do not reach conquest bonuses either.