The Narc
Well-known member
Power-levelling penalties are there for a reason. Tagging along for reapers should remain frowned upon by the devs, i support them in their current state of these rules.
U60 Lammania Preview 1 - XP System Adjustments
- Thread starter Torc
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I don't see any Dev responses in this thread so it seems as if this is something of an exercise in mental masturbation, but just in case a Dev might actually read this thread and happen across this post...
As I see it, the proposed change to XP does nothing to "fix" the pathing problem and does a massive amount to anger the playerbase. I see three outcomes from this change:
So, where does that leave us? A net increase in mob AI pathing and, best case, a net neutral opinion on the XP changes. Personally, I believe that the majority of your long-term players fall more on the Average to Zerger side of the spectrum meaning you will end up with an increase in pathing AI demands AND a net negative opinion on the changes. I seriously hope this entire plan is scrapped and re-thought. However, I doubt it since it seems like the Devs are already pretty sold on this idea since they aren't responding in this thread.
Sigh
As I see it, the proposed change to XP does nothing to "fix" the pathing problem and does a massive amount to anger the playerbase. I see three outcomes from this change:
- "Zergers": Zergers will continue to play they have always played because it will still be the most XP/min even though it will be substantially less than before. Outcome? No change to pathing demands and highly angered players at having to run more quests to get the same XP benefit.
- "Flower Sniffers": FS will continue to play they have always played because that is what they enjoy. Because of reading on the forums however, most FS are likely to feel like their playstyle is being encouraged and will as a result feel positive towards this XP change. In reality however, you are setting the XP to parity with the old system so they aren't actually gaining anything XP-wise. Eventually they will figure this out. Outcome? No change to pathing demands and positive responses from this group of players.
- "Average Players": Average players are going to be mixed on this. At first, they will likely go through the effort of trying for Onslaught / Conquest to get the "big XP". This means they will likely aggro far more mobs than they would ordinarily. I'd suspect this period will end after some period after these players remember just how boring it is to find all the out of the way places that mobs hide or sitting on spawn spots until you reach conquest. Some will like the changes, some will dislike them. Outcome? Increase in mob pathing AI demands due to more mobs being aggro'd and likely a net zero on like/dislike of the change.
So, where does that leave us? A net increase in mob AI pathing and, best case, a net neutral opinion on the XP changes. Personally, I believe that the majority of your long-term players fall more on the Average to Zerger side of the spectrum meaning you will end up with an increase in pathing AI demands AND a net negative opinion on the changes. I seriously hope this entire plan is scrapped and re-thought. However, I doubt it since it seems like the Devs are already pretty sold on this idea since they aren't responding in this thread.
Sigh
Dandonk
This is not the title you're looking for
Good summary, and yes. Sigh. Once again.
I don't see it.
Is there a serious CURRENT issue with people pulling a DA onto other players to get them killed? Would people really go to that trouble just to nerf the XP others (and they themselves) get... and if they WOULD then wouldn't they ALSO just run to the end and complete quests to 'grief' people by completing before conquest could be achieved under the proposed system?
...and wouldn't all of these hypothetical 'problems' be solved by not grouping with / ignoring that player going forward?
Monkey_Archer
Well-known member
I think the biggest flaw in this change is the assumption that conquest should be standard. This just isn't how players like to play this game. Its not how most quests are designed either.
Aggression bonus is roughly the standard for the average player and the xp break-even point should match this. Conquest typically makes quests take ~50% longer than is optimal and should be rewarded accordingly. With the change as is, the optimal path is still going to be zerg and ignore optionals/kills, with a few quest exceptions. We just get punished for it with no faster xp alternative.
If the goal is to incentivize slowing down:
1) XP should break-even at aggression bonus
2) Onslaught and conquest should be a significant increase in xp to make up for the extra time (+50%/+100% above live numbers)
3) There should probably be a higher reward for ransack as well
4) Add a penalty for triggering red alert to avoid mass mob gathering to get conquest faster (which is obviously what many players will start doing)
Aggression bonus is roughly the standard for the average player and the xp break-even point should match this. Conquest typically makes quests take ~50% longer than is optimal and should be rewarded accordingly. With the change as is, the optimal path is still going to be zerg and ignore optionals/kills, with a few quest exceptions. We just get punished for it with no faster xp alternative.
If the goal is to incentivize slowing down:
1) XP should break-even at aggression bonus
2) Onslaught and conquest should be a significant increase in xp to make up for the extra time (+50%/+100% above live numbers)
3) There should probably be a higher reward for ransack as well
4) Add a penalty for triggering red alert to avoid mass mob gathering to get conquest faster (which is obviously what many players will start doing)
These changes are terrible. They amount to a massive xp nerf unless you spend a TON of extra time on quests.
When I play non-HC, I rarely get dungeon alerts and I kill everything that aggros. I rarely get Conquest unless I go out of my way to do so. Even for groups playing the "right way", this is going to be a big xp nerf.
When I play non-HC, I rarely get dungeon alerts and I kill everything that aggros. I rarely get Conquest unless I go out of my way to do so. Even for groups playing the "right way", this is going to be a big xp nerf.
The Narc
Well-known member
they should add a penalty here;
Suggestion
-1 AC, -1 saving throws and -1 DC for combat abilities and spells
This would definitely discourage folks from amassing large groups(thereby raising Dungeon Alert and impacting all players on the server with lag) to mass kill with AOE attacks.
Please devs consider something like this, we all want less lag!!
Dandonk
This is not the title you're looking for
Yep. This is not even close "Net Neutral". It's a pretty big nerf - either you take much, much longer doing the quest to get the same xp as before (well, even that isn't possible in many cases), or you take a big loss on the xp on completion.
droid327
Well-known member
This point is worth emphasizing. Focusing on total xp per quest is somewhat misguided because that's not the metric that determines player behavior...It's xp/min that players use to make decisions. That's what created the zerging problem in the first place.
You're absolutely right, if it's not enough of a change then it's not going to change any behavior, it'll just be a nerf with no upside. And I don't believe the devs are willing to make the change big enough - ie to make killing mobs give the same xp/min as skipping them
jotmon
Well-known member
axel15810
Well-known member
I have so many thoughts on this, but to summarize things I don't think this is a good idea. I know devs want to improve lag and disincentivize alerts but there's gotta be another way. These changes put way too much emphasis on conquest and as many have pointed out already it's as a result going to dramatically lower xp/min in practice since you can't get conquest in so many quests by just going straight to the end killing mobs along the way. You'll now have to go out of your way to get the same XP you're already getting, resulting in less, or much less XP/min in practice. I dislike that it sort of turns every quest into a defacto slayer zone, and I personally really don't enjoy wilderness slayers already. It does also hurt diversity of quests, which I don't think is ideal - as many have explained already.
I don't quite even see how this reduces lag since presumably players will be aggro'ing many more monsters than they did before by going out of their way to approach mobs they wouldn't have prior. But maybe there's something technical I'm missing.
This also will really throw XP quest balance into shambles since quests where conquest is unattainable or extremely time consuming are gonna see their XP/min tank and others where conquest is somewhat easy to get won't be impacted nearly as much.
Probably best to scrap this and disincentivize zerging through DA changes, AKA making DA easier to get (while at the same time ironing out insta DA scenarios) or more dangerous rather than mess with XP, if zerging impacting performance is the concern. Players won't like that either, but they'll be more OK with it than a huge defacto XP/min nerf, which this is if conquest is now going to be required to get back the same XP players had prior.
I don't quite even see how this reduces lag since presumably players will be aggro'ing many more monsters than they did before by going out of their way to approach mobs they wouldn't have prior. But maybe there's something technical I'm missing.
This also will really throw XP quest balance into shambles since quests where conquest is unattainable or extremely time consuming are gonna see their XP/min tank and others where conquest is somewhat easy to get won't be impacted nearly as much.
Probably best to scrap this and disincentivize zerging through DA changes, AKA making DA easier to get (while at the same time ironing out insta DA scenarios) or more dangerous rather than mess with XP, if zerging impacting performance is the concern. Players won't like that either, but they'll be more OK with it than a huge defacto XP/min nerf, which this is if conquest is now going to be required to get back the same XP players had prior.
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Not that I am aware of. However, with named monsters getting significantly stronger, during those pumped up fights people ignore requests to knock the DA level down before trying to kill the thing.
Rhisen
Member
I don't think this experience change is a good idea. If you're going to move experience around, the experience bonus for running a quest without slayer bonuses should remain the same. As the optional experience exists, you get more experience for doing more. There shouldn't be a change to the quest experience from current day from start to finish. Change the delving bonus to match the same experience that players get now with the daily playthrough bonus and lower the overall bonus from aggression through conquest if necessary.
THERE IS NO PLAYER BENEFIT TO THIS CHANGE.
It seems like you are trying to cash grab players into buying more experience pots and otto boxes or be subject to a leveling slog.
TLDR: please don't make the average quest less experience than they currently are.
THERE IS NO PLAYER BENEFIT TO THIS CHANGE.
It seems like you are trying to cash grab players into buying more experience pots and otto boxes or be subject to a leveling slog.
TLDR: please don't make the average quest less experience than they currently are.
There has been a lot of various feedback in the thread, and I am sure a lot of my points are going to have already been brought up already but I figure I will echo in here as well.
I am not quite as opposed to these changes nor as doubtful of their effects as some people are however as they stand right now I am opposed.
For this change to go through as it is, one of two things needs to happen -
Either:
1) Take the effort to go through EVERY SINGLE quest in the game and make sure that conquest is achievable just by killing all the monsters on the primary route through the quest. This would probably be a very large amount of work and is almost certainly not going to be done perfectly.
2) Change the kill bonuses such that conquest offers a net increase in XP gained, onslaught is equal, and lower than onslaught is an XP loss. Something like Conquest is 90%, Onslaught 70%, Aggression 40%. This will let people who kill thoroughly have a reward for doing so, the average player will break even by most quests are usually onslaught by the end, some quests will give conquest with some extra XP which will offset the quests that dont even reach onslaught.
I am not quite as opposed to these changes nor as doubtful of their effects as some people are however as they stand right now I am opposed.
For this change to go through as it is, one of two things needs to happen -
Either:
1) Take the effort to go through EVERY SINGLE quest in the game and make sure that conquest is achievable just by killing all the monsters on the primary route through the quest. This would probably be a very large amount of work and is almost certainly not going to be done perfectly.
2) Change the kill bonuses such that conquest offers a net increase in XP gained, onslaught is equal, and lower than onslaught is an XP loss. Something like Conquest is 90%, Onslaught 70%, Aggression 40%. This will let people who kill thoroughly have a reward for doing so, the average player will break even by most quests are usually onslaught by the end, some quests will give conquest with some extra XP which will offset the quests that dont even reach onslaught.
Here's me hoping this doesn't fall on blind eyes. I know currently, if something hits Lamania, it is basically set-in-stone. Nobody can have better ideas than SSG. This is exceptionally more complex than just slapping it into conquest to avoid making new code.
I would propose Adding another Bonus Type rather than absorbing it into an already (mostly) working conquest bonus.
---
First Step, Leave Conquest as is.
---
Second Step, Remove the current First Time Bonus.
---
Third Step new Delving Bonus is as proposed by Torc. Simplicity of showing an improvement for doing Reaper compared to Elite.
Hard 50% Bonus
Elite 100% Bonus
Reaper 150% Bonus
---
Fourth step, Add a First Time Dungeon Awareness Bonus (name is questionable). This will calculate for individuals rather than the entire party.
Add the ability to count how many mobs have been agro'd as well as a tag on who agro'd the mob. When a mod becomes triggered, start a count of 30 seconds, after the 30 seconds, that mob is considered Aware. The reason for the 30 second delay is for when you walk into an end fight and blow up the boss without killing the mobs first.
Add the ability to count if that mob was killed after being aware.
In the XP window, show Mobs Aware of You minus Those Mobs Killed. (Again, calculated per person.)
Have a full experience value listed to start (think death penalty)(Solo, Casual, Normal, Hard = 20%///Elite, Reaper = 45%).
Subtract an experience value for having too many Aware Mobs left behind (10 mobs left behind = - 10%, 15 mobs = 15%, etc.).
---
Example of XP Window...
50 monsters made aware by You.
50 monsters made aware by You that were killed.
0 monsters left to spread word. (-0%)
First Time Awareness Bonus: +45%
50 monsters made aware by You.
40 monsters made aware by You that were killed.
10 monsters left to spread word. (-10%)
First Time Awareness Bonus: +35%
50 monsters made aware by You.
35 monsters made aware by You that were killed.
First Time Awareness Bonus: +30%
etc...
---
This system should keep game play the same for every playstyle EXCEPT the people causing your pathing issues.
The people that cause your pathing issues will be the only ones punished.
This allows a benefit to stealth gameplay bonuses which you "plan to add".
This allows you to not touch anything to do with awkward and complicated conquest numbers (which have been accepted by this point).
This allows the ability to maintain a First time separation maintaining the encouragement to run different things.
This allows poorly timed enemy spawns to not ruin a bonus last second.
This allows a person that doesn't know what they are doing to go off and accidentally trigger an encounter without hurting the rest of the party or griefing the system.
I would propose Adding another Bonus Type rather than absorbing it into an already (mostly) working conquest bonus.
---
First Step, Leave Conquest as is.
---
Second Step, Remove the current First Time Bonus.
---
Third Step new Delving Bonus is as proposed by Torc. Simplicity of showing an improvement for doing Reaper compared to Elite.
Hard 50% Bonus
Elite 100% Bonus
Reaper 150% Bonus
---
Fourth step, Add a First Time Dungeon Awareness Bonus (name is questionable). This will calculate for individuals rather than the entire party.
Add the ability to count how many mobs have been agro'd as well as a tag on who agro'd the mob. When a mod becomes triggered, start a count of 30 seconds, after the 30 seconds, that mob is considered Aware. The reason for the 30 second delay is for when you walk into an end fight and blow up the boss without killing the mobs first.
Add the ability to count if that mob was killed after being aware.
In the XP window, show Mobs Aware of You minus Those Mobs Killed. (Again, calculated per person.)
Have a full experience value listed to start (think death penalty)(Solo, Casual, Normal, Hard = 20%///Elite, Reaper = 45%).
Subtract an experience value for having too many Aware Mobs left behind (10 mobs left behind = - 10%, 15 mobs = 15%, etc.).
---
Example of XP Window...
50 monsters made aware by You.
50 monsters made aware by You that were killed.
0 monsters left to spread word. (-0%)
First Time Awareness Bonus: +45%
50 monsters made aware by You.
40 monsters made aware by You that were killed.
10 monsters left to spread word. (-10%)
First Time Awareness Bonus: +35%
50 monsters made aware by You.
35 monsters made aware by You that were killed.
First Time Awareness Bonus: +30%
etc...
---
This system should keep game play the same for every playstyle EXCEPT the people causing your pathing issues.
The people that cause your pathing issues will be the only ones punished.
This allows a benefit to stealth gameplay bonuses which you "plan to add".
This allows you to not touch anything to do with awkward and complicated conquest numbers (which have been accepted by this point).
This allows the ability to maintain a First time separation maintaining the encouragement to run different things.
This allows poorly timed enemy spawns to not ruin a bonus last second.
This allows a person that doesn't know what they are doing to go off and accidentally trigger an encounter without hurting the rest of the party or griefing the system.
TherioZero
Member
I really want to whine the game is to easy but now I am being forced to whine that I might have to do a couple extra quests to reach my goal and that is just to hard
Rhisen
Member
THIS. THIS! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!
The average player should break even running quests from start to finish without optionals.
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