Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh

[Valerianus]

this is debatable....

which part of it? i made a joke about creating and using a forum sock account, to me it seems appropriate to remind the readers that it is not ok to do so. then...yeah.....rules are booooring but hey, let's be good boys

maybe the part about moderations?

this is how i imagine a mod comin in on monday and having a look at how are we doin in here (just for fun, ddo forum\community is super chill and civil)

https://imgur.com/E6QurrT

 

[Frantik]

Sorry I am late to the party... I don't mind the idea, rather i would encourage it, that SSG tweak and rebalance the game with finesse and thoughtfulness. But reducing [upgraded] Draconic Incarnation's Epic Strike DPS (taking account of the CD change) by more than 50% in one foul swoop strikes me as utter madness. What are they playing at? Who makes these decisions?

Holy Fireball DPS reduced by almost 40%; who will now want to choose that ability? Blimey, who will go tier 5 EA now? Dedicated healers only I guess. What a completely lacklustre tier 5 ability.

Unholy Feeding instead of Greater Shadowform??? Do any of the designers play this game?

Wow, Quick Cut maybe just became the new melee meta!

Now I'm going to read through the 100+ pages of comments. I wonder if anyone from SSG does that?

After about 5 pages... it's all anyone at SSG needs to read and digest, and then find somewhere in their souls an ounce of dignity, and abandon these spell caster nerfs. If it isn't simply a crazy approach, why can't SSG explain their strategy to the changes at the start of this post instead of bulsh*tting us with cosmetic changes to ED icons? Get real!

 

[Rosze]

Sorry I am late to the party... I don't mind the idea, rather i would encourage it, that SSG tweak and rebalance the game with finesse and thoughtfulness. But reducing [upgraded] Draconic Incarnation's Epic Strike DPS (taking account of the CD change) by more than 50% in one foul swoop strikes me as utter madness. What are they playing at? Who makes these decisions?

Holy Fireball DPS reduced by almost 40%; who will now want to choose that ability? Blimey, who will go tier 5 EA now? Dedicated healers only I guess. What a completely lacklustre tier 5 ability.

Unholy Feeding instead of Greater Shadowform??? Do any of the designers play this game?

Wow, Quick Cut maybe just became the new melee meta!

Now I'm going to read through the 100+ pages of comments. I wonder if anyone from SSG does that?

After about 5 pages... it's all anyone at SSG needs to read and digest, and then find somewhere in their souls an ounce of dignity, and abandon these spell caster nerfs. If it isn't simply a crazy approach, why can't SSG explain their strategy to the changes at the start of this post instead of bulsh*tting us with cosmetic changes to ED icons? Get real!

DDO changes have always been with big swings with a hammer for a job that requires requires small tweaks. Also it often suffers from things similar to survival bias. People only use these few epic strikes instead of hammering them down to nothing really question should often be what’s wrong with the other ones. Would love to see more small tweaks over a few updates if needed rather than boos things to the moon then nerf them back down few months later and cycle continues

 

[Shear-buckler]

DDO changes have always been with big swings with a hammer for a job that requires requires small tweaks. Also it often suffers from things similar to survival bias. People only use these few epic strikes instead of hammering them down to nothing really question should often be what’s wrong with the other ones. Would love to see more small tweaks over a few updates if needed rather than boos things to the moon then nerf them back down few months later and cycle continues

The top damage strike is reduced by over 50% and the others are buffed. The nerfed strike is still the top damage strike. Seems fine to me.

 

[Jeronimo]

The top damage strike is reduced by over 50% and the others are buffed. The nerfed strike is still the top damage strike. Seems fine to me.

It's actually over 70% of the damage that is nerfed. It's not really ok IMHO.

 

[Shear-buckler]

It's actually over 70% of the damage that is nerfed. It's not really ok IMHO.

It's still the highest damage caster strike, no?

 

[Raedier]

It's still the highest damage caster strike, no?

It is not the highest damage caster strike, magus strike is now the highest damaging strike, by far. And even if it was the highest damaging strike, it is still far weaker then lvl 9 spells, tsunami, acid well, meteor swarm. Hence why all of the caster strikes should be buffed from this point on.

 

[Shear-buckler]

It is not the highest damage caster strike, magus strike is now the highest damaging strike, by far. And even if it was the highest damaging strike, it is still far weaker then lvl 9 spells, tsunami, acid well, meteor swarm. Hence why all of the caster strikes should be buffed from this point on.

Single target under specific and limited conditions, that seems perfectly fine still.

Keeping the heroic spells relevant and not just filler between the epic strikes is a perfectly valid design choice.

 

[Raedier]

Not under limited conditions, magus strike does out DPS DB even without the t5 upgrade since it has half the cool-down of DB, also it grants more effects, like a cc, vulnerability stacking and shattermantle while DB does nothing additionally except for a 25% chance for a no fail cc wich I find very lackluster.

Also, heroic lvl 9 spells would never be considered fillers even if strike damage quadrupled.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Not under limited conditions, magus strike does out DPS DB even without the t5 upgrade since it has half the cool-down of DB, also it grants more effects, like a cc, vulnerability stacking and shattermantle while DB does nothing additionally except for a 25% chance for a no fail cc wich I find very lackluster.

Also, heroic lvl 9 spells would never be considered fillers even if strike damage quadrupled.

A single target attack out DPS an aoe attack? Perfect!

 

[Raedier]

If we math out the DPS of a t5 boosted magus strike : (1d12+16) = on average 22.5xCL31=697,5 that is a lot of DPS on a 6 second cool-down, you could almost compare that to greater ruin intensified wich is 2k on a 15sec ff but the force part of it often doing less damage so I would say it evens out. So yeah, while I am not against magus strike doing more DPS then dragonbreath, if it also does the same DPS as. G ruin intensified wich needs 2 feats to even get, while leaving the other strikes in the dust with shadowdancer en primal strikes still being crap aswell as DB, this does not seem entirely fair to me.

 

[Jeronimo]

A single target attack out DPS an aoe attack? Perfect!

Primal Avatar will have higher epic strike damage for most dps casters compared to the new DB, for AOE. For sorcerers not using ruin, it will probably be better to run with Primal Avatar and/or Magus, with the currently proposed changes, depending on what you want to focus on. The most optimal for a cold sorc, would probably be Magus T5 and PA T3/T4, and skip the two ruin feats for something else. No reason for a sorc to run in DI any longer.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Primal Avatar will have higher epic strike damage for most dps casters compared to the new DB, for AOE. For sorcerers not using ruin, it will probably be better to run with Primal Avatar and/or Magus, with the currently proposed changes, depending on what you want to focus on. The most optimal for a cold sorc, would probably be Magus T5 and PA T3/T4, and skip the two ruin feats for something else. No reason for a sorc to run in DI any longer.

If we math out the DPS of a t5 boosted magus strike : (1d12+16) = on average 22.5xCL31=697,5 that is a lot of DPS on a 6 second cool-down, you could almost compare that to greater ruin intensified wich is 2k on a 15sec ff but the force part of it often doing less damage so I would say it evens out. So yeah, while I am not against magus strike doing more DPS then dragonbreath, if it also does the same DPS as. G ruin intensified wich needs 2 feats to even get, while leaving the other strikes in the dust with shadowdancer en primal strikes still being crap aswell as DB, this does not seem entirely fair to me.

By all means, balance issues should be handled.

 

[Lazuli]

Primal Avatar will have higher epic strike damage for most dps casters compared to the new DB, for AOE. For sorcerers not using ruin, it will probably be better to run with Primal Avatar and/or Magus, with the currently proposed changes, depending on what you want to focus on. The most optimal for a cold sorc, would probably be Magus T5 and PA T3/T4, and skip the two ruin feats for something else. No reason for a sorc to run in DI any longer.

I don´t think Magus strike is so good.

• Lunar Power is now: "+10 Negative, Cold, Force, and Universal spell power. Your Moon Lance and Gloom Spear spells now deal 1d12+16 damage to enemies with 0 or less Spell Resistance."

With 0 or less spell resistance. How many enemies are those? SR is super abundant in the game. Almost all monsters have SR, and many very high at that. I'm not so sure that we can happily lower the SR to 0 with Magus. That leaves the non-drow humanoids, who don't have SR, but I don't like an epic strike that is so limited by npc category.

Also, SR being involved in the efficiency of a damage spell is crap. In DDO they removed the SR from damage spells looong ago. Why do they now link the efficiency of a strike to mobs having SR 0?

In this update I only see an unjustified nerf to the casters. And I'm still waiting to see if they improve the draconic wings, which are terrible for a T5.

 

[Rosze]

I don´t think Magus strike is so good.

• Lunar Power is now: "+10 Negative, Cold, Force, and Universal spell power. Your Moon Lance and Gloom Spear spells now deal 1d12+16 damage to enemies with 0 or less Spell Resistance."

With 0 or less spell resistance. How many enemies are those? SR is super abundant in the game. Almost all monsters have SR, and many very high at that. I'm not so sure that we can happily lower the SR to 0 with Magus. That leaves the non-drow humanoids, who don't have SR, but I don't like an epic strike that is so limited by npc category.

Also, SR being involved in the efficiency of a damage spell is crap. In DDO they removed the SR from damage spells looong ago. Why do they now link the efficiency of a strike to mobs having SR 0?

In this update I only see an unjustified nerf to the casters. And I'm still waiting to see if they improve the draconic wings, which are terrible for a T5.

I totally agree this is almost useless. Might work for some enemies but it’s probably not enough damage to build around. If it was a new debuff to help the group I’d still hate the connection with SR but it would give a reason to invest in it. But it can’t just be a retrace of dust, ooze, ash as you can build your gear for those.
The draconic wings probably don’t need to be a tier 5. Just give it some extra like temp hp and it wouldn’t be fabulous but better

 

[Jeronimo]

I don´t think Magus strike is so good.

• Lunar Power is now: "+10 Negative, Cold, Force, and Universal spell power. Your Moon Lance and Gloom Spear spells now deal 1d12+16 damage to enemies with 0 or less Spell Resistance."

With 0 or less spell resistance. How many enemies are those? SR is super abundant in the game. Almost all monsters have SR, and many very high at that. I'm not so sure that we can happily lower the SR to 0 with Magus. That leaves the non-drow humanoids, who don't have SR, but I don't like an epic strike that is so limited by npc category.

Also, SR being involved in the efficiency of a damage spell is crap. In DDO they removed the SR from damage spells looong ago. Why do they now link the efficiency of a strike to mobs having SR 0?

In this update I only see an unjustified nerf to the casters. And I'm still waiting to see if they improve the draconic wings, which are terrible for a T5.

Use the PA strike and mantle instead. Magus Cosmos and Time stop are nice.

 

[CBDunk]

No reason for a sorc to run in DI any longer.

Yeah, in addition to everything else, all those caster level increases in the sorcerer elemental enhancement trees become a lot less useful when (nearly) everything is capped at MCL 20.

20th level elemental sorcerer: "Yay! I get +7 CL and +3 MCL to all spells of my element!" 20 + 7 = 27!
<MCL 20 nerf bat>
Sorcerer: "Less than half as yay?" min(20 + 7, 20 + 3) = 23 :[

 

[Frantik]

Can things EA's casting a "fire" be made to proc off fire warlock blasts? So many things don't proc off them because they're weird quasi-spell like stuff that don't count as their element which limited ED choice

It's actually over 70% of the damage that is nerfed. It's not really ok IMHO.

No.

Dragon Breath currently 1d6+10 (per character level) with 15 second CD.
Gaping Maw, for example, upgrades by doubling damage... 2(1d6+10) = [average] 2(3.5+10) = 27

Proposed changes (upgraded) 1d6+7 = 10.5 with 12 second CD

10.5/27 = 0.38888

taking into consideration CDs, 0.3888 x 15 / 12 = 0.4861; 100% - 48.61% = 51.39% nerf to DPS of Dragon Breath.

A clearer way?

DPS per minute of DB (per character level up to cap):

(1) current/upgraded = 4 [casts/min] x 2 x(3.5+10) = 108

(2) proposed/upgraded = 5 [casts per minute] x (3.5+7) = 52.5

DPS reduction = (108-52.5)/108 = work that out yourself.

 

[Jeronimo]

No.

Dragon Breath currently 1d6+10 (per character level) with 15 second CD.
Gaping Maw, for example, upgrades by doubling damage... 2(1d6+10) = [average] 2(3.5+10) = 27

Proposed changes (buffed) 1d6+7 = 10.5 with 12 second CD

10.5/27 = 0.38888

taking into consideration CDs, 0.3888 x 15 / 12 = 0.4861; 100% - 48.61% = 51.39% nerf.

... did you forget about the nerf to caster levels? It's a double nerf to Dragon Breath. A cold sorc can cast at lvl 51 as of right now.

 

[Lotoc]

No.

Dragon Breath currently 1d6+10 (per character level) with 15 second CD.
Gaping Maw, for example, upgrades by doubling damage... 2(1d6+10) = [average] 2(3.5+10) = 27

Proposed changes (upgraded) 1d6+7 = 10.5 with 12 second CD

10.5/27 = 0.38888

taking into consideration CDs, 0.3888 x 15 / 12 = 0.4861; 100% - 48.61% = 51.39% nerf to DPS of Dragon Breath.

A clearer way?

DPS per minute of DB:

(1) current/upgraded = 4 [casts/min] x 2 x(3.5+10) = 108

(2) proposed/upgraded = 5 [casrs per minute] x (3.5+7) = 52.5

DPS reduction = (108-52.5)/108 = work that out yourself.

You're missing breath being 1d6+10 upgraded, not 1d6+7 by the way. Tonquin posted that within the first 5 days after the initial preview.