PraetorPlato
Well-known member
Dragon breath was over performing *below* r7, not r7 and above.
Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh
- Thread starter Tonquin
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Hi. Just adding my 2 scents. Could you look at changing the GMoF and Divine Crusader stun/cower hold from 4 to at least 5 seconds. Not everyone has access to a caster to play with. Or like myself just solos stuff. Having a little more cc for melee would go along way. I doubt that it would be game breaking. Would really help out the 1-2 people groups whom make up a good portion of players. Plus all I hear is that trash mobs don't matter, so I guess it shouldn't be too much to ask. Thanks for your consideration
Yeah, I am. I suspect it is that it only works on "spells" and not things if a magical nature. I'll have to test it out some more and see if I have any concrete examples of it not working when it should
Phaaze
Well-known member
please add this to the main posts of the future lama threads.If it helps reassure you, please know that even though I can't personally reply to every post with "great idea!" that doesn't mean that your feedback isn't being taken into account behind the scenes. A lot of times changes that are seemingly innocuous to players require a great amount of work on the development side, and we don't tend to commit to something until we're sure we can follow through. The truth is really quite simple - the real reason I'm here asking people for their specific feedback is because we as a team do genuinely want the feedback that our lovely players provide.
Far from it - there's still plenty of time to make changes for the next update, it's not too late to add your voice!
it may help calm some players
Vox
Well-known member
It also doesn't help vs effects like divine wrath either (at least not when cast by Molnm, boss of Grimm & Barett)
Nokowi
Active member
Shadowdancer suffers from an identity crisis – it doesn’t help those that dance in the shadows. If these trees are supposed to be useful for multiple builds, the hybrid design needs to be removed completely as it is completely niche. Support for magic and illusion should be within one of the magic destinies. Players can then choose between a bit of illusion from a magic destiny and shadowdancer main and a bit of shadowdancer with illusion main. They could still play something similar to what they are doing now.
Any player can hide or move silently and the Shadowdancer tree should have been for those that want to play more tactically. Some effects can be based simply on not being attacked (agro management) and some on not being hit (avoidance) – that can be used by all play styles. This means using an active attack choice for blinding, a different active attack for additional defense, gaining temp HP based on time out of combat, and gaining a damage bonus based on a recent kill. These all work with or without sneak attack.
Anything and everything that makes you play differently and situationally for maximum effect. You can move to the shadows for additional defense or you can jump to the next target for the damage bonus. That’s a trade-off if both of these choices are useful. You can avoid agro or avoid being hit in many ways.
Much more effort needs to be put into making gameplay interesting. Players in this tree deserve the option for more interesting play choices than the current Shadowdancer which is just a DPS alternative with a weird (pun intended) illusion hybrid. A systematic agro re-work is long overdue.
Any player can hide or move silently and the Shadowdancer tree should have been for those that want to play more tactically. Some effects can be based simply on not being attacked (agro management) and some on not being hit (avoidance) – that can be used by all play styles. This means using an active attack choice for blinding, a different active attack for additional defense, gaining temp HP based on time out of combat, and gaining a damage bonus based on a recent kill. These all work with or without sneak attack.
Anything and everything that makes you play differently and situationally for maximum effect. You can move to the shadows for additional defense or you can jump to the next target for the damage bonus. That’s a trade-off if both of these choices are useful. You can avoid agro or avoid being hit in many ways.
Much more effort needs to be put into making gameplay interesting. Players in this tree deserve the option for more interesting play choices than the current Shadowdancer which is just a DPS alternative with a weird (pun intended) illusion hybrid. A systematic agro re-work is long overdue.
Tonquin
of Lightning Hammer fame!
I just checked this out in-game and am unable to reproduce this - from my testing it does appear work and correctly apply the proper debuff.
Also, great news on the Holy Fireball front - we actually fixed all SLA targeting for this very update. Check out this post for more information!
DeadAlready
Member
I am grateful to see the devteam responding to play feedback. That hasn't always been the case and while there is still a great deal of room for improvement this feels much better than it has in a long long time and I want to say that out loud. That said, I still see a few glaring imbalances I would love to see addressed:
All epic strike spells: Capping epic strike maximum caster level to 20 feels really bad. It is an enormous reduction in damage, especially for caster classes with fewer ways to increase maximum caster level than Sorcerers and Favored Souls. I would strongly suggest raising that cap to 30 or at the very least 25 to match Necrotic Ray and Black Dragon Bolt. Note that my suggestion applies to all epic strikes, including ones that are currently capped at maximum caster level 20 such as Strike a Chord.
Exalted Angel: Holy Presence passive healing is really important to inexperienced solo players breaking into epics. I would suggest moving Holy Presence healing effect to t4 or even t5 but PLEASE don't just remove the functionality. Perhaps make it a multiselect with Ascendance or Holy Fireball. That would still be an enormous nerf to access but it seems a lot less catastrophic outright removing this significant aid for new epic and legendary players.
Exalted Angel: Revert the damage and cooldown change to Holy Fireball. It's completely over the top and unnecessary for a tier 5 ability, especially when fire is one of the most highly resisted damage types in the game and divine casters have no way of stripping immunity. In fact I recommend changing Holy Fireball's damage to 1d6+6 light, fire, and alignment damage and the cooldown changed to 12 seconds to match Dragon Breath which would make a significant dent in addressing divine caster's persistent frustration with fire immune enemies.
Exalted Angel: In keeping with my proposal above I would love to see some sort of fire & light immunity stripping ability as a multiselect with Metamagic Attunement II.
Draconic Incarnation: Dragon Breath changes are still over the top, especially if you are committed to capping all Epic Strike's maximum caster level at 20. That's as much as a 78% reduction from fully pumped dragon breath damage on live. Acid Well deals 1d6+18 damage per caster level for an average of 21.5 with the same max caster level of 20. Dragonbreath already deals significantly less damage than that without Improve Dragon Breath Thus it's base damage should be reverted to 1d6+10 and Improve Dragon Breath should be changed to 1d6+18 if you cap maximum caster level at 20 and 1d6+14 if you take my earlier suggestion and raise the maximum caster of epic strikes level to 30. The change feels especially bad for Energy Vortex given the reduction in Dragon Breath cooldown also means in a reduction in the duration of Energy Vortex. As such I would revert Energy Vortex's damage to 1d6+10. It's still the least used of the Improve Dragon Breath options by a mile.
Macrotechnic: Galvanic Blast and Sonic Blast damage should be increased to 1d6+10 for the same reasons listed above.
Primal Avatar: Carrion Swarm should not have a save added or have its damage reduced. It's damage is lower than other caster epic strikes and it's a stackable DoT which is already disadvantageous for bursting and requires significantly more space in player DPS rotation at the expense of other damaging spells. Additionally it's damage is half poison which is even more widely resisted than fire. Which is why it's such a bad damage spell that it's already mostly used by gimmick built tanks. No need to degrade it further.
Shiradi Champion: Buff Fey Lights blind, silence, & daze(stun once upgraded) effect durations to 8 seconds to be more befitting an epic ability. At the very least make it 6 seconds to match Greater Color Spray and Daunting Roar.
Exalted Angel, Magus of the Eclipse, Fatesinger, & Shadowdancer: Even after the proposed buffs single target epic strike spells in these tree's will still underperform compared to heroic single target damage spells like necrotic ray, much less Iceberg and Lightning Strike. I would increase their base damage to 1d6+12 to match Necrotic Ray and Lunar Power's damage buff to 1d6+24 to approach Iceberg and Lightning Strike. I would also find a way to incorporate similar damage buffs into Exalted Angel, Fatesinger, and Shadowdancer. I am out of time to write for now but I will think on this question and follow up with a more detailed proposal when I get the chance.
All epic strike spells: Capping epic strike maximum caster level to 20 feels really bad. It is an enormous reduction in damage, especially for caster classes with fewer ways to increase maximum caster level than Sorcerers and Favored Souls. I would strongly suggest raising that cap to 30 or at the very least 25 to match Necrotic Ray and Black Dragon Bolt. Note that my suggestion applies to all epic strikes, including ones that are currently capped at maximum caster level 20 such as Strike a Chord.
Exalted Angel: Holy Presence passive healing is really important to inexperienced solo players breaking into epics. I would suggest moving Holy Presence healing effect to t4 or even t5 but PLEASE don't just remove the functionality. Perhaps make it a multiselect with Ascendance or Holy Fireball. That would still be an enormous nerf to access but it seems a lot less catastrophic outright removing this significant aid for new epic and legendary players.
Exalted Angel: Revert the damage and cooldown change to Holy Fireball. It's completely over the top and unnecessary for a tier 5 ability, especially when fire is one of the most highly resisted damage types in the game and divine casters have no way of stripping immunity. In fact I recommend changing Holy Fireball's damage to 1d6+6 light, fire, and alignment damage and the cooldown changed to 12 seconds to match Dragon Breath which would make a significant dent in addressing divine caster's persistent frustration with fire immune enemies.
Exalted Angel: In keeping with my proposal above I would love to see some sort of fire & light immunity stripping ability as a multiselect with Metamagic Attunement II.
Draconic Incarnation: Dragon Breath changes are still over the top, especially if you are committed to capping all Epic Strike's maximum caster level at 20. That's as much as a 78% reduction from fully pumped dragon breath damage on live. Acid Well deals 1d6+18 damage per caster level for an average of 21.5 with the same max caster level of 20. Dragonbreath already deals significantly less damage than that without Improve Dragon Breath Thus it's base damage should be reverted to 1d6+10 and Improve Dragon Breath should be changed to 1d6+18 if you cap maximum caster level at 20 and 1d6+14 if you take my earlier suggestion and raise the maximum caster of epic strikes level to 30. The change feels especially bad for Energy Vortex given the reduction in Dragon Breath cooldown also means in a reduction in the duration of Energy Vortex. As such I would revert Energy Vortex's damage to 1d6+10. It's still the least used of the Improve Dragon Breath options by a mile.
Macrotechnic: Galvanic Blast and Sonic Blast damage should be increased to 1d6+10 for the same reasons listed above.
Primal Avatar: Carrion Swarm should not have a save added or have its damage reduced. It's damage is lower than other caster epic strikes and it's a stackable DoT which is already disadvantageous for bursting and requires significantly more space in player DPS rotation at the expense of other damaging spells. Additionally it's damage is half poison which is even more widely resisted than fire. Which is why it's such a bad damage spell that it's already mostly used by gimmick built tanks. No need to degrade it further.
Shiradi Champion: Buff Fey Lights blind, silence, & daze(stun once upgraded) effect durations to 8 seconds to be more befitting an epic ability. At the very least make it 6 seconds to match Greater Color Spray and Daunting Roar.
Exalted Angel, Magus of the Eclipse, Fatesinger, & Shadowdancer: Even after the proposed buffs single target epic strike spells in these tree's will still underperform compared to heroic single target damage spells like necrotic ray, much less Iceberg and Lightning Strike. I would increase their base damage to 1d6+12 to match Necrotic Ray and Lunar Power's damage buff to 1d6+24 to approach Iceberg and Lightning Strike. I would also find a way to incorporate similar damage buffs into Exalted Angel, Fatesinger, and Shadowdancer. I am out of time to write for now but I will think on this question and follow up with a more detailed proposal when I get the chance.
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Tonquin
of Lightning Hammer fame!
Quick clarification - in our investigations, the only Epic Strike who was not already at max caster level 20 was Dragon Breath, and therefore it's the only one that has had its MCL adjusted for this preview.
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
even machrotech hammer/strike spells that didnt list a MCL?
DeadAlready
Member
I am reasonably certain Drifting Lotus was also uncapped. In any case there's a reason only dragon breath was comparable in damage to heroic spells like Acid Well and Necrotic Ray, which feels bad.
Oddly enough, that's pretty much what I think when I see any of your posts.
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
Divine Crusader Consecrate heal and damage should scale off MP or RP instead of spell power since it is a martial destiny.Do you still feel like there's a specific ability within the Epic Destinies that is underperforming compared to anything else within the system? If so, that's great feedback, and I'd love to know what specifically you think still needs a little help!
20 seconds is too long of a cooldown. There are other strikes I can do twice in that timeframe, so I’m inclined to use those over Consecrate. 15 sec would be more in line with other strikes.
Reifee - Orien
Well-known member
Funny,
I bet if there was a poll taken (that was worded correctly and not obtuse) it would be a landslide that this is a bit too much.
Dev's that don't take the time and consider things from a business perspective can damage a brand and a game beyond repair. I've seen it quite a few times over the years.
Make things things, create fun. Don't just make things harder.
You do realize that the casual player will take 4-8 weeks to TR. If you balance the game around the folks that have basically won the game your giving everyone else a momumental task thats just not fun. You want to challenge those players? Add Reaper 11-15. Make it very worth it, but very very difficult.
I bet if there was a poll taken (that was worded correctly and not obtuse) it would be a landslide that this is a bit too much.
Dev's that don't take the time and consider things from a business perspective can damage a brand and a game beyond repair. I've seen it quite a few times over the years.
Make things things, create fun. Don't just make things harder.
You do realize that the casual player will take 4-8 weeks to TR. If you balance the game around the folks that have basically won the game your giving everyone else a momumental task thats just not fun. You want to challenge those players? Add Reaper 11-15. Make it very worth it, but very very difficult.
TheSpencer
Member
Hi Tonquin, I appreciate your effort and communication throughout this thread! I want to point out to everyone complaining that Dragon Breath not having a MCL while all other epic strikes having one isn't good for game balance, yes I'm aware there are issues with caster dps in general but having one strong strike to account for it isn't the ideal solution. As the level cap increases Dragon Breath when left as is will only become a better and better choice, hurting build diversity.
Although I do worry that epic strikes excluding DB for spells are a bit under tuned, along with this alot dps casters have trouble when it comes to 1v1 dps, especially with the health of some of the newer bosses and mini bosses in the venca xpac. They certainly fall short when it comes to other builds partially in high skulls such as when spell damage is futher nerfed at R7+. Here are some of the ideas I had in mind to help this and ensure epic strikes don't become too weak as the level cap increases on it's way to 40:
Epic Knowledge : +1 caster level and +1 maximum caster level with all spells. Epic strikes get an additional +1 caster level and +1 maximum caster level.
The idea for this is that your epic strikes effectively scale with your character level so they won't be too strong early and not fall off as the levels go up. Another consideration I have is possibly removing the additional spell damage penalty from U59 in R7+, considering we are tuning down and have tuned down spells such as Dragon Breath and some others which may of been part of the reason it was initially added.
My other suggestion is around the EA mantel changes. I was wondering if rather than effecting allies on leave/enter could it instead be a pulsing area AOE effect. My main worry with the current design makes the player to constantly wiggle or tumble around (to keep blocking as a tank) to apply it, I feel like my hand would cramp up from that after awhile.
I often play caster dps myself and certainly have issues with 1v1 damage on a lot of builds, and in high reapers often feel useless in terms of it. So I do want to point out in general some dps caster builds could use some help in terms of increasing their dps. I feel that a lot of the negatives and concerns around Dragon Breath is that many rely on it being strong reasonable damage in higher skulls to account for the issue of general caster dps being low, and is a clutch to account for that more general dps issue.
So you literally removed the Epic MCL levels from all the *Epic* strikes by capping them to max heroic MCLs.
Maybe you should rename them to "Extra Heroic Strikes"?
Divine Crusader Sunder Evil (4th core) isn’t scaling with melee power, even though the description states it should.
Shadowdancer: While -30% threat reduction is nice, there are some times I still unintentionally grab aggro. It would be awesome if there was an ability in this tree that either removed me entirely from the aggro list or put me on the bottom of the list, like a ninja vanishing into the shadows.
Shadowdancer: While -30% threat reduction is nice, there are some times I still unintentionally grab aggro. It would be awesome if there was an ability in this tree that either removed me entirely from the aggro list or put me on the bottom of the list, like a ninja vanishing into the shadows.
Tonquin
of Lightning Hammer fame!
This has been fixed internally, and will be in for Preview 2. Thanks!
Have the lay on hands enhancements in Unyielding Sentinel been fixed?
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