I wish it had a modified form of warchanter opposed to Ravager myself and really lean into that support identity, but I'd imagine that could prove odd for bards as a whole. (Though it may just equate to being the martial counterpart to Stormsinger as an archetype.)
Update 66 Preview 2: Dragon Lord Fighter Archetype
- Thread starter SteelStar
- Start date
Another thought on the Strength Trance issue and Rage. Could we perhaps get a T5 or a core 12 that allows you to use the trance while raging? The prevents a good chunk of the low-splash fear.
While allowing Shifters (not everyone's a razorclaw people) and half-orcs to play around with the trance.
While allowing Shifters (not everyone's a razorclaw people) and half-orcs to play around with the trance.
songswrath
Well-known member
I said this back in preview one and somewhere in this preview too.
cold dragon swashbuckling dlord + swashbuckling for gobs of +multi + threat. Cold damage from warchanter passes through because of t4 dlord cold damage stripping.
Frantik
Well-known member
Does anyone know if the Blue Dragon's Soul provides both Elec and Sonic like the Dragonborn race does?
EDIT probably not, but it would be good to have a sonic version later.
ALSO, does anyone know if the Battlefield Tactician extra damage can be triggered by, say, Dire Attack?
EDIT probably not, but it would be good to have a sonic version later.
ALSO, does anyone know if the Battlefield Tactician extra damage can be triggered by, say, Dire Attack?
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Crustbucket
Well-known member
Honestly i thinks it good as is ... no need for Rage + Trance to be the best out there. On barbarian i always find Wis/Dex trances as very viable options, as they can be good off stats to have and are plentiful on gear.
Hey all,
i'm deeply in love with this archtype, i like the concept of beeing a master of CC in a melee character. But there only one thing about mixing with the ravager tree that makes me wonder.
The helpless dmg
Ravager got t5 bully which is a passive o 5/10/15 % of helpless dmg
x
Improved Dragon's roar which brings 20% helpless dmg on an ability trigger.
So we have a have a tree that makes mobs helpless with stat dmg and have a perma helpless dmg and other tree that make mobs helpless with tatical (but in fact is only stun) but in order to trigger this you have to:
Stun, use roar then strike.
I can't remember if the roar make them helpless but if works like howl of terror from, this will be kinda unpratical do use;
How about bring the helpless dmg working all the time and improve it to pair up with rogue/monk/falcontry 30%
Coffey
Well-known member
I asked a similar question during the first preview.
Tier 3 dazed effect makes vulnerable with a 25% chance of them breaking out of the daze.
The Cower effect makes the mobs completely vulnerable in tier 5.
well isn't that bad after all,
but still i think the class needs a helpless dmg besides the hoar. Maybe making this a passive not a temporary buff
Coffey
Well-known member
Well... they added the 20 sec 20% helpless damage to roar for the second preview. I would like it static 20% too but it seems to be a thematic play out with the roar.
make sense... but why not more? I mean, is all about the archtype beeing a cc master and punishing the victims. Like put 30% on a t5 core to make a "wise trade-off"
Coffey
Well-known member
Seems great the way it is honestly. Roar DC is not subject to class levels so you can probably figure out a fun and effective build to play.
Yeah, but i'm focusing on the class not the ability, therefore static bonus on higher treecore or static on roar . The roar is sure awesome, even the concept. Id also make that a party buff on aura radius to make party inspired by a dragon.
My point is making a class that excel in one thing actualy excel in one thing.
Also:
Maybe this change the meta a little bit or shake things off. There's nothing wrong with some a/b test and see how the users reacts
Frantik
Well-known member
[In the case somebody else has already posted this, sorry for being too lazy to having not read through all the posts]
RAW TACTICAL DC MATHS for PDK variant (requires lesser HoW) and compared STR versus CHA
Results:
(1) At level 20
- STR-based has +4 Hit/Dmg advantage (StD); 13 vs 9
- STR-based has +3 DCs for Sunder and Trip; 41 vs 38
- CHA-based has +1 tactical DC (from DL, Trance and PDK); 19 vs 18
(2) At level 32
- STR-based has +4 Hit/Dmg advantage (StD); 14 vs 10
- STR-based has +4 DCs for Sunder and Trip; 43 vs 39
- CHA-based has +1 tactical DC (from DL, Trance and PDK); 20 vs 19
Comment: STR edges Tactical DCs and Hit/Dmg when comparing STR and CHA PDK versions. Swapping to HOrc (without Orcish Rage) would add +3 STR, +3 (pure) Sunder DCs and an effective +1 DC to Sunder and Trip to the above results as well as improving Hit/Dmg again by +1.
Explanation:
- assumed Starting Stats as 16 STR 8 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 16 CHA (32 points and THF)
- assumed pure DL and level ups in either STR or CHA respectively
- assumed StD as secondary tree
- assumed for STR-based: DL(41/4 STR)+StD(26/8 STR and 6 CON and +10% health)+PDK(8/1 STR and +20% ST)
- assumed for CHA-based: DL(41/4 CHA and 2 STR)+StD(26/8 STR and 6 CON and +10% health)+PDK(8/1 CHA and +20% ST)
- assumed first Aura is +2 tactical DCs and AP spent into increasing tactical DCs in DL tree
- assumed that Trance is active!
- did not take into consideration main stat bonuses from THF to CHA/STR for extra damage
- did not take into consideration any set bonuses, item bonuses, Filigrees, ED bonuses, Legendary bonuses NOR Ability Tomes
- all values provided are rounded down to nearest whole number
Side Note: for all you Warchanter lovers, a PDK DL CHA version (1 DL 18 Bard 1 FvS) would add +4 Tactical DCs over a regular PDK variant (plus bagging you +20 ST for the cost of 5AP, and of course, a much-valued Feat). A CLR version going Dark Apostate would open up tier 1 Evil Damage Imbue for Favored Weapons which would require a large splash into Divine Crusader for that to work!
Second Side Note: an elegant alternative for a STR build DL could be Aasimar (Fallen); starting stats could be (again 32 point build) 18 STR 8 DEX 14 CON 13 INT 15 WIS 8 CHA, with no tomes. For those of you with Supreme Tomes and a 36 point build, i would max STR, 18 WIS and 16 CON. The stance bags you +1 STR, +2 Tactical DCs from 3rd core, +2 STR from racial cores and some self-healing, and if you have the Racial AP, +60 HAmp, +10 Melee Power).
RAW TACTICAL DC MATHS for PDK variant (requires lesser HoW) and compared STR versus CHA
Results:
(1) At level 20
- STR-based has +4 Hit/Dmg advantage (StD); 13 vs 9
- STR-based has +3 DCs for Sunder and Trip; 41 vs 38
- CHA-based has +1 tactical DC (from DL, Trance and PDK); 19 vs 18
(2) At level 32
- STR-based has +4 Hit/Dmg advantage (StD); 14 vs 10
- STR-based has +4 DCs for Sunder and Trip; 43 vs 39
- CHA-based has +1 tactical DC (from DL, Trance and PDK); 20 vs 19
Comment: STR edges Tactical DCs and Hit/Dmg when comparing STR and CHA PDK versions. Swapping to HOrc (without Orcish Rage) would add +3 STR, +3 (pure) Sunder DCs and an effective +1 DC to Sunder and Trip to the above results as well as improving Hit/Dmg again by +1.
Explanation:
- assumed Starting Stats as 16 STR 8 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 16 CHA (32 points and THF)
- assumed pure DL and level ups in either STR or CHA respectively
- assumed StD as secondary tree
- assumed for STR-based: DL(41/4 STR)+StD(26/8 STR and 6 CON and +10% health)+PDK(8/1 STR and +20% ST)
- assumed for CHA-based: DL(41/4 CHA and 2 STR)+StD(26/8 STR and 6 CON and +10% health)+PDK(8/1 CHA and +20% ST)
- assumed first Aura is +2 tactical DCs and AP spent into increasing tactical DCs in DL tree
- assumed that Trance is active!
- did not take into consideration main stat bonuses from THF to CHA/STR for extra damage
- did not take into consideration any set bonuses, item bonuses, Filigrees, ED bonuses, Legendary bonuses NOR Ability Tomes
- all values provided are rounded down to nearest whole number
Side Note: for all you Warchanter lovers, a PDK DL CHA version (1 DL 18 Bard 1 FvS) would add +4 Tactical DCs over a regular PDK variant (plus bagging you +20 ST for the cost of 5AP, and of course, a much-valued Feat). A CLR version going Dark Apostate would open up tier 1 Evil Damage Imbue for Favored Weapons which would require a large splash into Divine Crusader for that to work!
Second Side Note: an elegant alternative for a STR build DL could be Aasimar (Fallen); starting stats could be (again 32 point build) 18 STR 8 DEX 14 CON 13 INT 15 WIS 8 CHA, with no tomes. For those of you with Supreme Tomes and a 36 point build, i would max STR, 18 WIS and 16 CON. The stance bags you +1 STR, +2 Tactical DCs from 3rd core, +2 STR from racial cores and some self-healing, and if you have the Racial AP, +60 HAmp, +10 Melee Power).
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Desirdes
Well-known member
Shouldn't the gap between STR and CHA-based DCs for sunder/trip be much higher given STR is the contributing attribute to DC plus also having access to a STR trance so you can double dip whereas a CHA-focused character would be missing a lot of the base DC unless they also pumped up STR? The existence of a STR trance I assume would make the gap way too unfair, especially at end game, unless they changed tactics base DC to include ways to work with things other than STR.
*Edit - Ah nvm I glossed over even the CHA-based stacking plenty of STR. Still when gear and buffs are taken into account I feel CHA would really lag behind due to all the needed STR investment to keep up whereas a STR-based will just passively be ahead without even needing to worry about a secondary offensive stat.
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Frantik
Well-known member
I wanted to provide insight between STR-based Dragon Lord with STR Trance and PDK version CHA-based Dragon Lord with CHA Trance.
Sunder and Trip are essentially STR feats (DEX for Trip as well) so first impressions would agree with you. However, as DL is basically a THF tree, starting stats for both CHA and STR versions can be comparable (realistically you'd be starting with either +2 STR wrt the PDK CHA version or if you go HOrc +4).
However, taking StD as second tree (for both versions) adds +8 STR which also adds to Sunder and Trip DCs for CHA version. Coupled with PDK's Cormyrean Knight Training (limiting you to Great Swords for best tactical DCs) adds another 1/3 of CHA modifier to tactical DCs, so this is why there is finally less than a difference than at first glance. But only with PDK; any other race would lose (3+(items, set bonuses, filigrees, tomes, other CHA sources)/3) to their Tactical DCs compared to PDK DL.
Frantik
Well-known member
I am not a STR melee person much but from what I have read on this thread and elsewhere, Sunders are easier to land at later levels (Fortitude save) than Trips and they also don't get the repeated extra saving throws every 2 seconds as the Trips suffer from. Im my humble opinion, I think that the tier 4 DL ability Battle Tactician IV extra damage will not regularly or reliably proc for most of us mortals but at least they give you extra DCs for the 2AP.
Desirdes
Well-known member
Yeah I gotcha, I glossed over all that STR the pdk was getting. Honestly it feels kinda bad having CHA be a big secondary option for dragonlord but when sticking to the theme of tactics CHA based only really works on an iconic that you also must blow a lesser tr on. I feel they could add something in the tree or as an intrinsic part of Dragonlord where sunder/trip allows CHA for scaling. Of course that would very much boost pdk even higher but it would also make CHA melee multiclasses that want to actually use tactics much better regardless of race.
Coffey
Well-known member
Like vanguard DCs with stunning shield and shield rush based on the highest ability modifier for eg.