Variant Iconics

[Aelonwy]

I think the initial idea behind Iconics was a good one but often it is implemented in a corrupted, unappealing fashion. We need Variant Iconics that meet the classical definition of the word "Iconic."

To that end I suggest creating:

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic
Faerun Drow of Eilistrae Bard Iconic
Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic
Gnome Artificier Iconic
Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic
Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic
Aasimar Paladin Iconic
Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic
Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic
Tiefling Warlock Iconic
Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic

I admit I'm not sure what is most iconic to Warforged, or Half-elf, or what is absolute most Iconic for rogue but the above are all very iconic to their setting and would actually be race/class combos people desire to play. These would encourage sales and be meaningful characters within the lore of the worlds in which we play.

PSA: Just in case any are still unaware... Suggestion threads have a voting mechanism to the far right of the initial post. Likes and comments are welcome but if you like the idea please upvote there---------------------------->

 

[Aelonwy]

Wasn't the latest Iconic for Tabaxi? In fact, pretty much all of the Iconics were for pay-to-play races, it's just that a few years ago they made a number of those races free-to-play.

(As far as I'm aware there's been no explicit dev statement that Iconics can only exist for free classes either - they just haven't made a set for all of the existing free ones yet. Same goes for Archetypes.)

Good catch, I meant F2P classes but typed races. The races for the iconics were always(?) new and premium when they came out.

I will edit so as to confuse no one else with my mistake. But there was definitely a dev statement in the past that Iconics would only be with F2P classes, perhaps it can be found somewhere on the old forums or perhaps it was said on one of the twitch shows but it is definitely something we have understood as the case for a long time. Certainly, they can change their minds about that policy but so far we have had no indication of such.

 

[PurpleSerpent]

Good catch, I meant F2P classes but typed races. The races for the iconics were always(?) new and premium when they came out.

I will edit so as to confuse no one else with my mistake. But there was definitely a dev statement in the past that Iconics would only be with F2P classes, perhaps it can be found somewhere on the old forums or perhaps it was said on one of the twitch shows but it is definitely something we have understood as the case for a long time. Certainly, they can change their minds about that policy but so far we have had no indication of such.

Ah, I see.

Well, we'll have to see about that one - three F2P classes (Druid, Sorcerer and Warlock) are still to get Iconics of their own, and I'd imagine they'll have to take priority - which, at the current release rate of one Iconic per full expansion, blocks out at least the next two-and-a-half years.

 

[Aelonwy]

Ah, I see.

Well, we'll have to see about that one - three F2P classes (Druid, Sorcerer and Warlock) are still to get Iconics of their own, and I'd imagine they'll have to take priority - which, at the current release rate of one Iconic per full expansion, blocks out at least the next two-and-a-half years.

So to recap, of the existing races, one of these next would be preferable - Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic, Tiefling Warlock Iconic, Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic, but it would depend I suppose on which expansion they've decided upon next.

So if its Planescape, assuming they don't introduce a new race and shoe-horn it in, Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice would fit. If its Ravenloft, Tiefling Warlock would be okay. Myth Drannor... uhm Dragonborn Sorcerer? I'd almost rather get a Faerun specific Iconic package with Myth Drannor. Something like Sun Elf Wizard, Dwarven Defender Fighter, and Drow Eilistrae Bard.

 

[Edrein]

Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic

All of these are great; except this one. My inner stickler says you might as well admit that is a Faerun Drow Ranger Iconic for Drizzt.

For the Vulkoorim a better iconic would be a Vulkoorim Shaman: FVS, Sorc, or Druid themed around Vulkoor, poison, and negative energy. Perhaps having a class pet version of the level 6 Vulkoor summon scorrow pet.

But beyond that nitpick, all of the ideas you have are amazing and would make for some great iconic variants to further pad out the list of playstyles and 'class combos' without being full on archetypes.

 

[Aelonwy]

All of these are great; except this one. My inner stickler says you might as well admit that is a Faerun Drow Ranger Iconic for Drizzt.

For the Vulkoorim a better iconic would be a Vulkoorim Shaman: FVS, Sorc, or Druid themed around Vulkoor, poison, and negative energy. Perhaps having a class pet version of the level 6 Vulkoor summon scorrow pet.

But beyond that nitpick, all of the ideas you have are amazing and would make for some great iconic variants to further pad out the list of playstyles and 'class combos' without being full on archetypes.

I did NOT mean to mimic Drizzt, I chose Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic for legitimate reasons.
A) I had already selected Halforc Gatekeeper Apprentice Druid, as the most Iconic Druid for Eberron in the classic sense of the word.
B) Despite Foxpaw telling us his father wished him to follow in his footsteps as a druid... we do NOT see Vulkoorim drow druids in action in either Menechtarun or Red Fens (where Foxpaw supposedly originates.) What we do see is a lot of Drow Warriors, Dervishes, and Scouts. They often use scimitars and longbow, both weapons of rangers. They are often accompanied by Scorpions, easily their ranger animal companion.
C) I agree Shaman would be a good choice but I was going for classes/races already in the game so they could more easily be adapted for Variant Iconics.
D) Eberron Drow and Faerun Drow have no lore in common. A Vulkoorim Drow makes sense as a ranger. Sorceror, Cleric or Bard are the best options for a Faerun Iconic Drow. Fire Sorcerer is also the best option for a Sulatar Drow Iconic.

All things considered, I felt ranger fit the edge of civilization lifestyle of the Vulkoorim Drow, that while not being an evil race still maintain worship of one of the Dark Six.

 

[Mornyngstar]

My 2 cents: I would love it if they added a Basic race and Iconic for Illithids. Also adding a new set of enhancement trees (Class) of Psionics. Especially if in the Iconic or basic racial enhancement you could get the ability to suck out an opponent's brain (instant kill if save is failed).

 

[Aelonwy]

My 2 cents: I would love it if they added a Basic race and Iconic for Illithids. Also adding a new set of enhancement trees (Class) of Psionics. Especially if in the Iconic or basic racial enhancement you could get the ability to suck out an opponent's brain (instant kill if save is failed).

That's perhaps worthy of its own suggestion thread, but doesn't really fall into the scope of my suggestion. I cannot say that I have ever wanted to play an Illithid. But if we did get Psionics its my hope they would come with Kalashtar first.

 

[Pandjed]

First off, here my analyzing Iconics threat from the old forum to see where my general stance is with what we have. In case someone cares (bit dated, but even SDK changes doesn't change much imo).

While I do think that my personal big point (altering the class like Bladeforge) is somewhat adressed with the archetype system these days, I would still like to have some more profound mechanics in new iconics than simple some racial tree options. Especially as new iconics wouldn't need an entire archetype tree, just one or two small changes.
Like a Vadalis beastmaster, a human ranger with a pet, some dark hunterish pet buffs in racial tree, swapping bow strength with Mark of Handling and changing one of the fighting styles with augmented summoning and other beast support. Will it be strong? Would be strange if it would be, but it would be iconic.

 

[Edrein]

I did NOT mean to mimic Drizzt, I chose Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic for legitimate reasons.
A) I had already selected Halforc Gatekeeper Apprentice Druid, as the most Iconic Druid for Eberron in the classic sense of the word.
B) Despite Foxpaw telling us his father wished him to follow in his footsteps as a druid... we do NOT see Vulkoorim drow druids in action in either Menechtarun or Red Fens (where Foxpaw supposedly originates.) What we do see is a lot of Drow Warriors, Dervishes, and Scouts. They often use scimitars and longbow, both weapons of rangers. They are often accompanied by Scorpions, easily their ranger animal companion.
C) I agree Shaman would be a good choice but I was going for classes/races already in the game so they could more easily be adapted for Variant Iconics.
D) Eberron Drow and Faerun Drow have no lore in common. A Vulkoorim Drow makes sense as a ranger. Sorceror, Cleric or Bard are the best options for a Faerun Iconic Drow. Fire Sorcerer is also the best option for a Sulatar Drow Iconic.

All things considered, I felt ranger fit the edge of civilization lifestyle of the Vulkoorim Drow, that while not being an evil race still maintain worship of one of the Dark Six.

Actually all fair points.

 

[Alisonique]

Only one question after reading all this thread: Why have SSG not employed Aelonwy ? The ideas that have come up are just , well....right.

 

[Aelonwy]

Only one question after reading all this thread: Why have SSG not employed Aelonwy ? The ideas that have come up are just , well....right.

Even if I wanted to... I couldn't, I'm the main care-giver for my FiL with dementia. Best they get from me are suggestions, hopefully they consider some of them.

 

[Xgya]

I think the most iconic 3.5 Dwarf barring Tordek was given one of the very first Prestige Classes: Dwarven Defender.

As for adding that many Iconics right off the bat, I think this would either be a lot of work, or would make them all-too-similar to the base class.
When you give ideas for new Iconics, for me to be on board, you have to show me what's iconic, what's unique enough about them that warrants creating anything new to accommodate.
What's different between a dwarven Fighter that uses heavy armor and a tower shield and a Dwarven Defender?
What would you give a Jorasco Healer that would differentiate it from a Halfling Cleric that took the Mark of Healing feat?
What should an Iconic Dragonborn Sorcerer do better than a non-Iconic one? What do they lose in order to gain that benefit?

I agree Jorasco Healer IS iconic, but I don't see what game mechanic should be added to them to make them unique enough to warrant the effort of creating an Iconic variant.

The thing about TRULY iconic character builds is that people came in to play the game EXPECTING to be able to play them.
Nothing more iconic than an Elven Wizard. And you can totally play one, just come to DDO!

 

[Aelonwy]

When you give ideas for new Iconics, for me to be on board, you have to show me what's iconic, what's unique enough about them that warrants creating anything new to accommodate.

I'll give it some thought but I don't want to go into too much detail, not only because the effort and time would be wasted since the devs really don't follow suggestions to that depth or extent but also because there are such a vast number of possibilities that I don't want to limit anyone's potential brainstorming with pre-conceived notions.

I'll come back later and flesh out what I think might make one of your examples Iconic.

 

[Xgya]

I'll come back later and flesh out what I think might make one of your examples Iconic.

It doesn't need to be detailed.
Here's my short bit for the Dwarven Defender: They use shields and they're not meant to be mobile.
It's about as detailed as that will ever need to be, and it's unique enough that many ideas can eventually come out of that concept: A shield user that needs to stay put in order to gain benefits.
This easily gives many ideas as to what the pros and cons of being a Defender over a Dwarven Fighter should be, without exactly stapling them.

 

[Aelonwy]

I see a Dwarven Defender as maybe able to dual-wield shields or perhaps use Weapon Focus Blunt/Weapon Specialization Blunt/Improved Critical Blunt Weapons with shields. The Ultimate Shield fighter.

I thought perhaps you wanted a layout of the racial enhancements.

 

[Xgya]

I see a Dwarven Defender as maybe able to dual-wield shields or perhaps use Weapon Focus Blunt/Weapon Specialization Blunt/Improved Critical Blunt Weapons with shields. The Ultimate Shield fighter.

I thought perhaps you wanted a layout of the racial enhancements.

No, I want to know what would make the iconic examples you named worth making as wholly separate races (because that's what Iconics are in DDO), and not just one of the many builds you can already do with the existing ones.
What makes them different from the usual race/class/feat combos they represent.
- I know this isn't exactly the case for existing Iconics, and some of them were mostly an excuse for "create a level 15 character from the start".

I see Dragonborn as making already very good Sorcerers, without exactly needing someone to create a whole new separate option at race selection. If I want to create an iconic build that is the Dragonborn Sorcerer, I already can. No strings attached.
A Dwarven Barbarian is a fun build worth playing. Is it worth creating a whole new race at race selection for it though?

One of the examples you gave that I totally WOULD see as an Iconic is the Talenta Plains Outrider. This one doesn't even need specification, because "rides dinosaurs in combat" is something unseen anywhere in DDO, and otherwise had to replicate with just a class/feat combo. Though it COULD be an Archetype instead of an Iconic.

 

[Aelonwy]

Okay here goes... remember these are just ideas not demands.

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic : Two options come immediately to mind, Empowered Healing at half the cost (5 instead of 10 extra spell points) automatically and something like Dwarven Iron Stomach where any potion you drink gives some healing (based on positive spell power) + Remove Poison/Disease. Could call it Jorasco Herbalism or something.

Faerun Drow of Eilistraee Bard Iconic : Obviously access to a new deity feat for Eilistraee with Bastard Sword Favored weapons, ought to also make it a finessable weapon for this race only. Significant benefits to cloth only armor such as Evasion or increased MRR cap in cloth because Eilistraee and her followers celebrate/worship naked. Maybe... just maybe replace instrumental perform animation with a graceful ballet-like perform animation as Eilistraee and her people are known for their dancing.

Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic : Summon a Raptor that levels with you like druid wolf, also a brief charge attack mounted on the summon. Would have to animate a leap/mount on summon charge and leap/dismount at end.

Gnome Artificier Iconic : Tinker Gnome concept, replace or in addition Illusion Spell Focus with Evocation Spell Focus, Construct Favored Enemy and/or Weaken Construct Effect (like gear effect on Blasting Chime.) An Empowered Repair could also be neat. Maybe replace one Illusion SLA with a helpful Drone-type SLA.

Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic : Temporary Enlarge Person SLA (as used by the Duergar on Ataraxia) and brief Charge/Knockdown attack (as used by the Battlerager Skeletons in Thunderholme.) Finally, combine the Dwarven Weapon Training lines, a Battlerager would be trained in ALL dwarven favorite weapons.

Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic : Either able to dual wield shields or access to Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec/Improved Critical Blunt for shields. Access to Faerun Dwarven Deity with Dwarven Axe as Favored Weapon.

Aasimar Paladin Iconic : Access to increased number of LoH perhaps back to pre-nerf Aasimar but maybe higher in tree? A turning bonus that works to turn Evil Outsiders (banish or cower.) Maybe a Toggle-able aura like Aura of Menace.

Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic : Planar Magic. As guardians of the Plane of Eberron from extra-planar incursions they should have an affinity for Planar Magic/spell Power, they should have bonuses to fighting outsiders, and possibly a special outsider-only CC. Maybe the choice of str or wisdom in their racial cores due to their cultural upbringing.

Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic : Reduced spell point costs to spells of your element. Stronger Draconic Heritage with Increased chance to crit with spells of your element. Draconic Knowledge, early bonus to UMD.

Tiefling Warlock Iconic : You've entrusted your soul and given your word to a particular Power, your innate Spell power/resistance is now based on that Pact. Choose Wisely. Some AoE SLA like Wall of Fire but its element is contingent upon the Pact.

Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic : Scorpion Summon that levels with you like druid wolf. Replace line Faerie Fire/Enchantment Lore/Darkfire with Poison Based Druid SLAs and Poison Spell Power/Lore enhancement. Include Scimitars in Xendrik weapons training.

Obviously from these ideas Talenta Halfling and Vulkoorim Drow ranger would probably take the most time/effort because of the pets.

 

[Xgya]

Okay here goes... remember these are just ideas not demands.

Obviously from these ideas Talenta Halfling and Vulkoorim Drow ranger would probably take the most time/effort because of the pets.

A lot of those ideas are just "whatever the build already did, but better", no chance for a tradeoff, and nothing new the build couldn't do before.
I simply don't think this warrants a whole new race to make it happen.
If the build simply sounds like "This, but better", then I say it is no different from "this", and probably doesn't need the extra oomph.
Is Dragonborn Sorcerer an iconic character build? Of course it is. Should we create a new race that starts at level 15 that's exactly what a Dragonborn Sorcerer currently is, but better at it? Probably not.

When I asked for what the race is about, what I meant to ask is what that race does DIFFERENTLY from the initial one.
Aasimar Scourges dual wield maces. (it's not THAT unique, mind you, but it's something that only Scourges can do reliably). You can't point at one and say "Aasimar Ranger, but better".
Cormyrian Knight Training is unique to Purple Dragon Knights, and it opens whole new character builds. They also get access to new deities and can't have dragonmarks.
Bladeforged are tied to a single deity that was already unique to Warforged, they get repair spells that normal Warforged Paladins wouldn't.

Of the examples you gave, the Drow Bard is the closest. It's unique compared to other drow in the same way PDKs are unique compared to humans; not that unique, but unique enough it might be interesting. One unique concept (bastard sword-wielding Bard), and a unique deity selection.

Here's my idea for a Tinker Gnome: loses the Homunculus and the caster level boost on used items, gains gadgets that do things with increasing effects based on level. (it doesn't need to be more detailed than this. In fact, it probably shouldn't be)
For the Gatekeeper Druid: In 3.5, Gatekeepers eventually gained the ability to turn aberrations like Clerics turn undead. As for what they'd do worse than normal Druids, I have several ideas I'd rather leave blank.
------------------------------------------------------
The one Prestige Class that was only for Jorasco Halflings is actually on the evil side of things, the Nosomatic Surgeon. Learn how positive energy powers the living, then, using the power of your dragonmark, learn how to dissect people using that energy.

 

[Aelonwy]

Maybe I'm just confused what you want from me... I'm trying to suggest Variant Iconic combinations in the classical definition of Iconic that people might want to play. Then you ask for ideas of what would make them special so I gave some ideas. Then you say, you also want the tradeoffs, what they would loose but then you give your own example and say:

For the Gatekeeper Druid: In 3.5, Gatekeepers eventually gained the ability to turn aberrations like Clerics turn undead. As for what they'd do worse than normal Druids, I have several ideas I'd rather leave blank.

Maybe I felt it was okay to leave that part blank as well based on what you were initially asking.

 

[Xgya]

Maybe I'm just confused what you want from me... I'm trying to suggest Variant Iconic combinations in the classical definition of Iconic that people might want to play. Then you ask for ideas of what would make them special so I gave some ideas. Then you say, you also want the tradeoffs, what they would loose but then you give your own example and say:

Maybe I felt it was okay to leave that part blank as well based on what you were initially asking.

It's mostly because a LOT of the builds that fit the classical definition of Iconic are already available without needing to jump through hoops.
Dragonborn Sorcerer is the best example on that list.
Want to play an iconic spellcaster called an Elf Wizard or a Dragonborn Sorcerer? You ALREADY CAN.
No additional work necessary.

Requiring anyone to do any additional work in order for players to be able to play Dragonborn Sorcerers is asking for extra work to be done so players can play something that's already available to them.

When i asked for examples, the goal is "What makes this option not something players already have access to?"
A Druid that loses access to some spells/spells slots/spells per day but can turn Aberrations like a Cleric turns Undead (both the pros/cons being suggestions) gives them something no Druid can currently do without outright making them The Better Half-Orc Druid(tm).

The option given for both Dragonborn and Halfling are essentially "The Better *insert already existing race/class combo*"

I could see the Jorasco Halfling being introduced as part of a Dragonmark rework that made the Dragonmark centric to the character might be interesting. But I'd probably make them non-Clerics, to make sure their healing abilities COME FROM THE MARK.
The higher ups in Jorasco tend to be Adepts (lesser divine spellcasters with a mix-and-match of spells) and Experts (nothing but skills). An adventuring Jorasco Healer would fit best as a Rogue.
A unique character option: a Rogue that spends a lot (or only a little) of its specialization to heal people. I.e: Entirely, totally NOT "The Better Halfling Rogue". But also not "The Bad Halfling Rogue" (as that'd be sad). Maybe "The Better Halfling Rogue with the Healing Mark", but even that point isn't entirely certain.
The healer you send into camps surrounded by enemy troops a classical Cleric simply couldn't sneak in.

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TLR: Most builds considered truly Iconic by the classical way to view it are already available to players without any developer time required to code, balance and release anything new.
Essentially, for every iconic build, the question that's being asked is "Why do you think this character build is unavailable to you?", which led me to ask what was unique about them.
"Can I currently build a Half-Orc Druid with a focus on killing extraplanar threats and Aberrations? Probably not."