Variant Iconics

Aelonwy

Well-known member
I think the initial idea behind Iconics was a good one but often it is implemented in a corrupted, unappealing fashion. We need Variant Iconics that meet the classical definition of the word "Iconic."

To that end I suggest creating:

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic
Faerun Drow of Eilistrae Bard Iconic
Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic
Gnome Artificier Iconic
Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic
Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic
Aasimar Paladin Iconic
Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic
Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic
Tiefling Warlock Iconic
Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic

I admit I'm not sure what is most iconic to Warforged, or Half-elf, or what is absolute most Iconic for rogue but the above are all very iconic to their setting and would actually be race/class combos people desire to play. These would encourage sales and be meaningful characters within the lore of the worlds in which we play.

PSA: Just in case any are still unaware... Suggestion threads have a voting mechanism to the far right of the initial post. Likes and comments are welcome but if you like the idea please upvote there---------------------------->
 
Upvote 34

Lazuli

Well-known member
See, I said our Shadar-kai are very confusing. They may count as human but they neither get the first level bonus feat nor the extra skill points humans do. DDOwiki says they are Extraplanar, from the plane of shadow. So Human? Elven? Fey? Outsider? which is it?
The shadar-kai are an example of poor lore development in the D&D game, because they have had their background changed several times, unfortunately. Not a surprise that they are confusing in DDO.

The first D&D shadar-kai, in fiend folio 3.0 (even before 3.5), were shadowy extraplanar fey. But this race barely had an impact on the game during 3.0/3.5. They were transformed into Netherese humans at the beginning of fourth edition.

The truth is that as such they make a lot of sense: In 3ed was assumed that the Netherese had been transformed by their long stay in the Shadow Plane and their closeness to Shar, and were no longer normal humans (the most powerful of them being shades, like the ones seen in Whats Goes Up), and in general they fit very well with the original idea of the shadar-kai. But I deeply dislike retcons in the background, I think D&D writers could have perfectly introduced another race without touching the fey shadar-kai. They could have kept the original fey as beings that helped the Netherese in their transition, but anyway. I really hate retcons. I think a good editor should know how to maintain coherence in the worlds he creates.

In any case, the fourth edition Netherese shadar-kai imitated quite well the shadowy features given by the templates that were used in third edition for shades and others touched by the shadow and/or the goddess Shar. So the concept fit, although the retcon is shameful.

The DDO shadar-kai cannot be followers of Raven Queen, because that concept is later than our shadar-kai.

Considering this, I think it's pretty obvious that DDO's shadar-kai are the Netherese humans. Think that they were introduced with the Netherese plot, with the first times Shar was used in DDO, and just when 4ed was starting. The shadar-kai fey were pretty forgotten npcs at the time, and netherense was in vogue. And the DDO shadar-kai iconic tree imitates all the powers that the Netherese shadar-kai had in 4ed.

As for some discrepant mechanical details, I wouldn't give it too much importance. First, remember that the first iconic ones were released without racial features. We had to wait a while for the morninglord to gain elven traits like enchantement resistance or proficiencies with elven weapons, or for the PDK to gain his extra human feat, e.g. Even when the devs fixed these two iconics, the shadar-kai had no racial traits other than his ability adjustments, and we had to wait years, until relatively recently, for them to give the feat they have now (Shadar-Kai Chain whip).

And keep in mind, devs were trying to convert a 4th edition npc stats to a DDO sheet, based on a modified 3ed rulebook. 3ed and 4ed were so different mechanically. We were not going to have accuracy, in any case, neither in npcs nor in shadar-kai characters. It is even possible that, taking the concept of FR over SK netherese humans, DDO devs have sought inspiration in the SK fey 3.0 sheet, which actually shares many ideas with the 4ed stats.

Although I personally would have liked that in addition to the Shadar-Kai Chain whip feat they had also given him the skill points of humans, to highlight his origin as humans modified by shadow. Or else resistance to energy drain, which is another typical thing that Netherese people touched by shadow had in third edition.


Ps: written quickly, I probably mistreated the language more than usual, sorry.
 
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Lazuli

Well-known member
(Sorry for the double post) Don't forget that Shadowfell conspiracy is using 4th edition lore.

"Officially, the Shadar-Kai have a different origin in the Forgotten Realms in 4E. In The Realms, at least as of 4E, The Raven Queen does not exist (The FRs are not the default setting of 4E). In The Realms, the Shadar-kai are the result of the Spellplague mingling humans (of the Netherese Empire, who fled the fall of their empire to the Shadowfell) with shadow magic and producing a new race. Their basic attributes and behavior are the same as in the 'Core' 4E world.
Source: Dragon Magazine #391, p.13"

You can find a nice little write up of Shadar-Kai in all 3 editions here. I'm quoting the 4th edition addendum verbatim
Yes, you are right. As I said, first came the SK fey in 3.0 (fiend folio), then the human Netherese in 4ed, and finally the Raven Queen ones. The netheril ones were obviously part of the forgotten realms setting. The three concepts are neat, the shame is the retcons, and D&D devs didn't bother to introduce the three concepts coherently.
 
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Aelonwy

Well-known member
I think what they should do (as a larger revamp of the Favor systems), is have a Dragonborn Iconic that's a favored soul of Bahamut. "Dragonborn of Bahamut" was a 3.5 D&D class, so mining that for anything useable and making it a racial tree, and giving us a platinum dragonborn as a lead-in to metallic Dragonborn would be awesome. And then have that Iconic be pegged to the same favor reward that unlocks Favored Soul.

(To be fair, I had this idea back before they restructured what was Pay2Play, and my original idea included having the Dragonborn race at unlocked at that benchmark too).

I know you prefer Dragonborn sorcerer, though. I'm not opposed to that. And every other suggestion you made in your original suggestion is something I would also love to see.

I don't have my heart set on Draconic Sorcerer, its just the best fit for what is currently Free-to-play and Sorcerer is still missing any Iconic whatsoever. My personal favorite for Iconic Sorcerer would be Genasi, however, Genasi do not currently exist in DDO and likely would not be Free-to-Play if they added them any time soon. Ergo a Genasi Sorcerer Iconic would likely be an expansion bundled item if it ever comes to pass and not what I am currently suggesting... Variant Iconics that could be created and sold at any time with less effort than creating a race from scratch.

I like your idea. If they expand on either the Prophecy and the dragons of Argonessen story or are ever allowed to bring Tiamat into the Eberron story, your Dragonborn FvS of Bahamut would fit nicely.

The shadar-kai are an example of poor lore development in the D&D game, because they have had their background changed several times, unfortunately. Not a surprise that they are confusing in DDO.

Ugh. Retcons. No wonder its so confused. So Shadar-kai warlock just wouldn't fit. Oh well. I didn't remember about the first iconics getting their racial feats late.

I remember thinking they were such a mess. At the time I felt the Bladeforged was the best of them, and it rankled that it was Paladin when warforged have no innate synergy with Divine classes. PdK to this day is just ugly but it was a preferably Charisma based fighter? Huh?! Were they mocking us? Sunelf cleric of Amaunator, as we've discussed before, shouldn't have been allowed by anyone paying attention to lore. Shadar-kai... well when first created was fairly lame but now is pretty decent.

Initially, it seemed like all of them were meant to be played as ANY class but the one they started in and that just felt warped. Later it so obviously became a money-grab for +1 hearts.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I don't have my heart set on Draconic Sorcerer, its just the best fit for what is currently Free-to-play and Sorcerer is still missing any Iconic whatsoever. My personal favorite for Iconic Sorcerer would be Genasi, however, Genasi do not currently exist in DDO and likely would not be Free-to-Play if they added them any time soon. Ergo a Genasi Sorcerer Iconic would likely be an expansion bundled item if it ever comes to pass and not what I am currently suggesting... Variant Iconics that could be created and sold at any time with less effort than creating a race from scratch.

I like your idea. If they expand on either the Prophecy and the dragons of Argonessen story or are ever allowed to bring Tiamat into the Eberron story, your Dragonborn FvS of Bahamut would fit nicely
ohh genasi sorc could be so cool. But I have no hope either.

The dragonborn of Eberron are closely related to the draconic prophecy, yes. They are only supposed to live in significant numbers in Argonessen, where the bulk of their population is concentrated serving the "dragon-kings", and in a large colony of Q'barra, where they consider themselves "defenders of the prophecy." So an iconic could be created with an interesting Eberrionian background, if SSG wants. Although ironically in Eberron, the iconic thing would not be dragonborn sorc, but dragonborn bard (ukristroth), which are bards dedicated to the mysteries of the Draconic Prophecy. Dragonborn leaders (the elders) tend to be clerics.

But hey, DDO tends not to pick the most iconic combination, so sorc could be cool, because an iconic like that could have the draconic prophecy in his blood.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
Ugh. Retcons. No wonder its so confused. So Shadar-kai warlock just wouldn't fit. Oh well. I didn't remember about the first iconics getting their racial feats late.

I remember thinking they were such a mess. At the time I felt the Bladeforged was the best of them, and it rankled that it was Paladin when warforged have no innate synergy with Divine classes. PdK to this day is just ugly but it was a preferably Charisma based fighter? Huh?! Were they mocking us? Sunelf cleric of Amaunator, as we've discussed before, shouldn't have been allowed by anyone paying attention to lore. Shadar-kai... well when first created was fairly lame but now is pretty decent.

Initially, it seemed like all of them were meant to be played as ANY class but the one they started in and that just felt warped. Later it so obviously became a money-grab for +1 hearts.
Well, I think shadar-kai warlock does work. The devs chose assassin shadar-kai, but it is only one of the possibilities for this race. In fact, most shadar-kai societies are supposed to be magocracies, ruled by powerful illusionists. The shadar-kai chain was a thing for fighters, not rogues, in D&D shadar-kai. Of course the base race is very well equipped to be a rogue, but the race does not begin or end with the rogue class. A cleric of Shar would be tremendously thematic (although I hope better equipped in wis than the morninglord xd). And warlock also works, it would be a wonderful opportunity to create a Shadow pact.

Although if we are looking for something truly iconic, warlock is not the best fit for a shadar-kai, no. But it's not inconsistent either, especially with a shadow pact.

It's the same as with bladeforged. The Lord of Blades forges don't just produce paladins. In fact, although paladins serving an evil entity is possible in Eberron, it should not be common. LoB is supposed to produce warforged of three varieties: scout, warrior and magical. Come on, if the devs want they could give us a bladeforged of almost every class lol.

Devs chose paladin for the bladeforged because they wanted to represent a LoB champion; the LoB's favorites. There you have the divine connection that you are missing. Faith is a curious thing in Eberron, divine powers can be gained if you truly believe in something, although that source you believe in is not truly divine. Keith Baker, the creator of the setting, said that he saw magic as a real force in Eberron's cosmology. The way to access that force was either through intelligence and deduction (arcane magic), or through the channel of faith (divine classes), or inheriting drops of that force (like sorc eg). In Eberron it is not even known if the gods truly exist. So, yes, paladins who believe in LoB, or simply in the cause of LoB, can develop that channel to divine force.

As a curiosity, the channel you use to access the force (god, this sounds almost Star Wars lol) determines the type of magical effects you can create, hence the differences between arcane and divine magic, that is, between the different spell class lists. Keith Baker has a tremendously interesting blog where he talks about his vision of Eberron and clears up people's doubts. I don't know if you've read it, but it's worth it if you're interested in world lore. This vision of Eberron magic, so herodox, so different from traditional D&D magic (which assumes that divine magic comes from the gods, while arcane is something completely different from divine) is what shaped the artificer class, which in its original version of 3.5 said (textual quote from the player's manual) "Their magic is neither arcane nor divine, and they are not bound by that classification:"

Paladins, who are as good and lawful, always given me a bit of hives as iconics in the service of LoB, but I understand the devs' reasoning in creating this iconic, and I don't entirely disapprove. I just wish there were more bladeforged variants, because LoB doesn’t just create paladins, and although a LoB-forged champion and his defense of the warforged makes a lot of sense, too much LG is something that... doesn't quite fit.

Morninglord sun elf there is no way to defend it, it is a background error.

Shadar-kai assassins are fine. As I said before, the race is very gifted to be rogue, but in the shadar-kai society there are more possibilities. Emphasizing that they are Netherese, they come from the empire of Netheril, which was an empire of archmages: they have always been ruled by wizards. Even the SK fey of 3.0 were ruled by illusionist wizards.

PDK... yes, most PDKs will have the fighter class. Yes, the majority will be human (although they can be of any race that lives in Cormyr). I understand the charisma thing, they wanted to emphasize being martial leaders, etc. It would have made more sense if they had given ways for social skills to influence combat instead of applying charisma to damage, but hey, this is DDO. That they have ended up being used by paladins and bards is not representatively iconic, but as I said, although the majority of the PDK will be fighters, in this organization there must be members of other classes as well. The truth? What bother me the most about this iconic is its appearance. PDKs are not deformed orangutans! Or they shouldn't be lol

The problem with iconics is that they were created to be a way for people to get to playing MOTU, which was an epic expansion, quickly. Initially they were not going to be useful to play your main character, because they could not be reincarnated. You weren't supposed to play them with classes other than the one that came packaged. An iconic was a closed concept.

Of course, people rejected that. They wanted to play that with their usual characters, with several past lives. They saw no use in a throwaway character, no matter how exotic it was. The devs gave in immediately and "found a way" to add other classes after the first class. They “found a way" to TR a character in them. People liked that, and they immediately forgave devs for what was clearly going to be a mine to sell +1 hearts. I never understood that "we've found a way." Devs have the code, they could have unlinked the first class level the same as they unlinked the others levels. Yes, it may not have been intentional at first, but it's clear to me that Turbine saw the potential of selling hearts with the iconics very early on. People would have been happy with that. For me, however, it was the first thing I disagreed with the company.

And yes, the iconic ones at the beginning were very incomplete. They were missing racial traits, except for the ability adjustments. The morninglord was without a doubt the rarest elf of all the D&D settings, cleric of a human deity, without elven weapon proficiencies, without resistance to enchantments and immunity to sleep lol

Devs fixed all the first iconic ones pretty quickly... all except shadar-kai. I think that not even the devs themselves had very clear about what racial traits that iconic should have lol
 
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Arkat

Founder & Super Hero
I think the initial idea behind Iconics was a good one but often it is implemented in a corrupted, unappealing fashion. We need Variant Iconics that meet the classical definition of the word "Iconic."

To that end I suggest creating:

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic
Faerun Drow of Eilistrae Bard Iconic
Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic
Gnome Artificier Iconic
Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic
Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic
Aasimar Paladin Iconic
Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic
Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic
Tiefling Warlock Iconic
Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic
Yes!
 

Hobgoblin

Well-known member
Hmmm...

What is the most likely race for an Iconic Cleric(?) of Vol? Would it be a Dark Apostate Iconic? I half wanted Vol to triumph in the Necro raid.
that brings up a good point.

would love iconics that start as archetypes.

maybe dwarf battlerager?

uses greatclubs and such?
 

Uppsy

Well-known member
Hmmm...

What is the most likely race for an Iconic Cleric(?) of Vol? Would it be a Dark Apostate Iconic? I half wanted Vol to triumph in the Necro raid.
I'm a huge Vol fan (as all my guildies know and friends) so anything would make me happy just to link it to her. I was the same but I also wish in Vecna Unleashed the connection was made there but unfortunately it wasn't
 

Hobgoblin

Well-known member
i want a fighter

thinking about maybe duelist? lose like heavy armor and feats not geared towards classical fencing weaps gain attack speed and crit range?

or

and this is me fanboiing -

weapon master.

gain proficiency in all weapons.

replaces kensi.

as a bunch of +damage to all weapons and an insane crit range....

just spitballin here
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I would have liked the iconic fighter to have been a dwarven defender, and it would have been a good way to introduce that tree that was promised to us as a racial but never came when the racial tree system was abandoned after the elven AA. But that will never come.

Dwarven druid, no, please. We've already kicked around enough iconic concepts.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
I think the initial idea behind Iconics was a good one but often it is implemented in a corrupted, unappealing fashion. We need Variant Iconics that meet the classical definition of the word "Iconic."

To that end I suggest creating:

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic
Faerun Drow of Eilistrae Bard Iconic
Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic
Gnome Artificier Iconic
Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic
Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic
Aasimar Paladin Iconic
Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic
Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic
Tiefling Warlock Iconic
Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic

I admit I'm not sure what is most iconic to Warforged, or Half-elf, or what is absolute most Iconic for rogue but the above are all very iconic to their setting and would actually be race/class combos people desire to play. These would encourage sales and be meaningful characters within the lore of the worlds in which we play.

PSA: Just in case any are still unaware... Suggestion threads have a voting mechanism to the far right of the initial post. Likes and comments are welcome but if you like the idea please upvote there---------------------------->

I don't get it. You can already make halfling clerics, drow bards, halfling barbarians, gnome artificers, dwarvne barbarians, dwarven fighters, aasimar paladins, halforc druids, dragonborn sorcerers, tiefling warlocks and drow rangers. Do you just want to be able to start at level 15?

Sure maybe you can say the same about the current iconics, but if you think they are "corrupted and unappealing" why exactly do you expect the these ones to be different?
 
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Aelonwy

Well-known member
I don't get it. You can already make halfling clerics, drow bards, halfling barbarians, gnome artificers, dwarvne barbarians, dwarven fighters, aasimar paladins, halforc druids, dragonborn sorcerers, tiefling warlocks and drow rangers. Do you just want to be able to start at level 15?

Sure maybe you can say the same about the current iconics, but if you think they are "corrupted and unappealing" why exactly do you expect the these ones to be different?
As I pointed out previously, but was ignored, we can also make a tiefling bard at level 1 but a tiefling scoundrel was made special. So why shouldn't these ideas also have the ability to be special? On page 2 post #37 I gave examples how I think they might make these Variant Iconics special. Simultaneously, what I think is "corrupted and unappealing" about the current iconics I have explained multiple times. Many DO NOT FIT the lore, they have been shoe-horned in to fit whatever is currently being sold or developed in such a way that they encourage +1 heart sales. The most egregious example of which is Morninglord Sunelf which should not have been approved by WotC. I would like Iconics, that are actually the definition of "Iconic", within the lore of the worlds to which we have access.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
As I pointed out previously, but was ignored, we can also make a tiefling bard at level 1 but a tiefling scoundrel was made special. So why shouldn't these ideas also have the ability to be special? On page 2 post #37 I gave examples how I think they might make these Variant Iconics special. Simultaneously, what I think is "corrupted and unappealing" about the current iconics I have explained multiple times. Many DO NOT FIT the lore, they have been shoe-horned in to fit whatever is currently being sold or developed in such a way that they encourage +1 heart sales. The most egregious example of which is Morninglord Sunelf which should not have been approved by WotC. I would like Iconics, that are actually the definition of "Iconic", within the lore of the worlds to which we have access.

If Aasimar paladin is an iconic character then there should just be synergy between Aasimar and paladin.

You can come up with "something special" for possible every class/race combination but I really don't see the point of making them iconics. Iconics should never be "standard race but better". One iconic per class to give the ability to start at level 15 is more than enough. Any other "iconic" customization should just be added to the standard races.
 
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