What could be done to make "Past Lives" more interesting?

[paddymaxson]

The problem with doing something about past lives - and believe me I'd love to see something done about them (both if they cause performance issues AND I'd like to see the grind for new players vastly fiminished) is that few people want to lose even a shred of their earned power, no matter how small or irrelevant to their current build it is, so I've got to wonder how you'd ever fix the issue. I like the idea of "past life" enhancements a lot, but I wonder if they'd do anything to improve performance and they've certainly got scope for nerfing some people.

 

[Ethril]

Seems like a hardcore season test would be a nice way to test if past lives are indeed a cause of lag.

Shutdown all the servers and just have hardcore for a month or two.

Unless I'm missing something, you shouldn't need to shut down any of the other servers. One server *shouldn't* impact another.

 

[Ethril]

Okay. Dumb person who does not know much about computers has a question.

So, there are something like 190 past life feats. From what I remember of computer stuff, storing that would look something like...

00011000 01001001 00101000...

A character has the feat or does not have the feat, so 0 or 1 for each one. All told, there are 190 0s and 1s. Divide that by 8 so...24 bytes? Do I have that correct? Isn't that a microscopic amount of information? Why would loading that up cause any lag?

That's probably not how it's stored. It's likely in a relational database rather than bit flags.

 

[Lazuli]

Most likely, PLs will not produce lag, their code would have to be very poor for static values to promote lag. It's just the eternal excuse to make nerfs.

 

[Sarandra]

>> What could be done to make "Past Lives" more interesting?​

Have way way fewer of them. As close to "none" as possible.

 

[Ethril]

Most likely, PLs will not produce lag, their code would have to be very poor for static values to promote lag. It's just the eternal excuse to make nerfs.

The only things I can think of is if they are:

1. Loading these values frequently instead of caching them

2. Checking for these values frequently

3. Feats in general cause lag so the more of them a character has, the laggier they are

The first one is unlikely and should be easy to fix. I have no idea why the second one would be happening. The third is possible given some of the other sources of lag that they had addressed due to order of operations. However, I wouldn't think this would apply to all feats and only specific ones during specific interactions. If so, they could probably just combine bonuses from all sources into a stored value similar to how they now handle damage.

 

[Uska]

I assure you not. DDO is not the beginning and end of the universe. There are many interesting hobbies out there.

Most other hobbies require more attention, time or going out

 

[Lacci]

Most of my toons have few or no past lives at all, and I get plenty of lag with them.

 

[Ethril]

Most of my toons have few or no past lives at all, and I get plenty of lag with them.

It's possible that they are referring to systemic lag rather than individual lag.

 

[erethizon1]

The way you enjoy DDO is valid, and I think it's important for each of us to acknowledge that others enjoy DDO differently than we do. Given that some like endless grind and some would love it if alt-play were more viable and others still simply wish there were less PL grind; I think it's reasonable to look for a happy balance somewhere. The suggestion to reduce all PL passives to a single feat still leaves a lot of grind in DDO in terms of TR grind (there are still plenty of other grinds in the game as well) and I believe that if this change were implemented that more players would look forward to future grinds that get added to the game in the form of new classes/races/archetypes or even a legendary tr system.

You could prove me wrong, but I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree about whether or not there is too much grind and whether or not anything should be done about it.



Made my morning as I sip my coffee. Thanks!

Yeah, you are largely correct. I don't play popular MMO's because they are all designed for fast progression. I got in to free-to-play MMO's when I discovered the Korean grind MMO's where the level cap was nearly impossible to reach (due to an exponential curve) and they were free because the grind was so long they expected you to pay money to make it faster. What I discovered was, as long as I never spent any money on anything to speed up the grind, the games were the perfect length. I simply don't ever want to reach the cap in any game ever.

With that in mind, DDO has a nearly perfect system. It does allow you to reach the cap so you can do raids if you want, but then you can TR right back to level one so you can play the entire game again (which is far less boring than only repeating the high level content because you are nearly at cap and working on an exponential curve). Playing each quest once per life makes for the slowest rate of repetition possible, because I literally am playing the entire game 56 times in a row. Most games have you play in the newbie zone once and only for a few hours, but spend years doing content near the cap. Thus you never get to fully enjoy the early content, while the later content becomes far too repetitive.

For me, I seek out games like DDO specifically because of the grind (which I don't view as a grind, but rather satisfying progress that is the result of normal play). Just last night I joined a level 10 ToEE party on mid-reaper even though I was already double capped, because there is more than enough experience in the game and rapidly TRing is not my purpose in playing. Running a few quests for zero exp is no big deal (it's not like we don't all do that at the cap when we play up there). DDO has thankfully become the game I was looking for, but I acknowledge that means the people that want to quickly get to max power so they can do nothing but raid every day are not going to be happy with it. That crowd simply doesn't like the same types of games I do. I need to have something to pursue, other than gear, and they need to know that they have already completed 100% of all available character advancement (which is something I never want to achieve).

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

For me, I seek out games like DDO specifically because of the grind (which I don't view as a grind, but rather satisfying progress that is the result of normal play). Just last night I joined a level 10 ToEE party on mid-reaper even though I was already double capped, because there is more than enough experience in the game and rapidly TRing is not my purpose in playing. Running a few quests for zero exp is no big deal (it's not like we don't all do that at the cap when we play up there). DDO has thankfully become the game I was looking for, but I acknowledge that means the people that want to quickly get to max power so they can do nothing but raid every day are not going to be happy with it. That crowd simply doesn't like the same types of games I do. I need to have something to pursue, other than gear, and they need to know that they have already completed 100% of all available character advancement (which is something I never want to achieve).

Thank you for considering the other point of view.

Quickly getting to max power doesn't necessarily mean staying at endgame and raiding all of the time. Some people TR frequently to try out new builds. Some people run nothing but R10s from 1-32 to test that power. Some people like to run raids on R10 both at cap and at-level for heroic and epic level raids. Some people also DO like to play alts, and while you don't need ALL of the past lives to run an alt, depending on the build they certainly help a lot.

Also- I wouldn't call 22 class/archetype lives + 24 racial/iconic + 13 epic lives "quick". Nearly 60 TRs (50 lives even if you double dip the iconics) at 3 days each = 5 months of non-stop TR grind. And that's if you don't take a single day off and are able to 1-20 in 2 days and 20-32 in 1 day. I think most people are closer to 7 days per TR with at least a week at cap to raid, get RXP and farm gear. If 14 days per TR is accurate to the average pace, it would take most players 2 years to grind out those lives. Using those numbers in the 3x PL system we have today, it takes power gamers a year and a half to get all the lives and casuals 6+ years to do the same.

Cheers though that you enjoy DDO! I'm hopeful that even if they do ever reduce the TR grind for heroic/racial/iconic/epic lives that they will then be free to add more grind in the form of Legendary TR. Something I would actually be excited for if this type of change were ever implemented.

 

[Cyran]

Yeah, you are largely correct. I don't play popular MMO's because they are all designed for fast progression. I got in to free-to-play MMO's when I discovered the Korean grind MMO's where the level cap was nearly impossible to reach (due to an exponential curve) and they were free because the grind was so long they expected you to pay money to make it faster. What I discovered was, as long as I never spent any money on anything to speed up the grind, the games were the perfect length. I simply don't ever want to reach the cap in any game ever.

With that in mind, DDO has a nearly perfect system. It does allow you to reach the cap so you can do raids if you want, but then you can TR right back to level one so you can play the entire game again (which is far less boring than only repeating the high level content because you are nearly at cap and working on an exponential curve). Playing each quest once per life makes for the slowest rate of repetition possible, because I literally am playing the entire game 56 times in a row. Most games have you play in the newbie zone once and only for a few hours, but spend years doing content near the cap. Thus you never get to fully enjoy the early content, while the later content becomes far too repetitive.

For me, I seek out games like DDO specifically because of the grind (which I don't view as a grind, but rather satisfying progress that is the result of normal play). Just last night I joined a level 10 ToEE party on mid-reaper even though I was already double capped, because there is more than enough experience in the game and rapidly TRing is not my purpose in playing. Running a few quests for zero exp is no big deal (it's not like we don't all do that at the cap when we play up there). DDO has thankfully become the game I was looking for, but I acknowledge that means the people that want to quickly get to max power so they can do nothing but raid every day are not going to be happy with it. That crowd simply doesn't like the same types of games I do. I need to have something to pursue, other than gear, and they need to know that they have already completed 100% of all available character advancement (which is something I never want to achieve).

Would front loading the power from the grind affect your enjoyment of the game. Mainly if they reverse racial AP to be AP/Stat/SP would the skill point not be enough motivation to go after or have no affect on your desire to play in order to get those skill points. If skill point not enough motivation how about AP/SP/Stat and being motivated to get the stat bonus?

My position have been while I would not mind total grind being reduce, I would also be just as happy if total grind remain same but some of the power from the grind being a bit more front loaded and I wondering if something like that would make the game less fun to someone that enjoys the idea of a endless grind.

 

[Br4d]

What SSG needs to do is make the gameplay more compelling and stop making it such a heavy grind. We've got thousands of players with fully fleshed out toons and almost nothing worth running with those toons.

The people who need grind will make alts and grind them to get another endgame ready toon. What is needed is something to play those toons in which BTW would be amazing for the people who don't like to grind also.

Next Past Life is not what DDO needs if it is going to appeal to anybody outside the dedicated grind.

 

[erethizon1]

Thank you for considering the other point of view.

Quickly getting to max power doesn't necessarily mean staying at endgame and raiding all of the time. Some people TR frequently to try out new builds. Some people run nothing but R10s from 1-32 to test that power. Some people like to run raids on R10 both at cap and at-level for heroic and epic level raids. Some people also DO like to play alts, and while you don't need ALL of the past lives to run an alt, depending on the build they certainly help a lot.

Also- I wouldn't call 22 class/archetype lives + 24 racial/iconic + 13 epic lives "quick". Nearly 60 TRs (50 lives even if you double dip the iconics) at 3 days each = 5 months of non-stop TR grind. And that's if you don't take a single day off and are able to 1-20 in 2 days and 20-32 in 1 day. I think most people are closer to 7 days per TR with at least a week at cap to raid, get RXP and farm gear. If 14 days per TR is accurate to the average pace, it would take most players 2 years to grind out those lives. Using those numbers in the 3x PL system we have today, it takes power gamers a year and a half to get all the lives and casuals 6+ years to do the same.

Cheers though that you enjoy DDO! I'm hopeful that even if they do ever reduce the TR grind for heroic/racial/iconic/epic lives that they will then be free to add more grind in the form of Legendary TR. Something I would actually be excited for if this type of change were ever implemented.

6 or more years sounds right. The problem is that players assume they should just have all the past lives possible. I don't ever intend to get all the past lives possible and I prefer it that way. I want them to add past lives faster than I acquire them. This idea that characters need every drop of power possible before the game even starts (the so called "end game" is often referred to as the start of the "real game" by people that prefer that play style) is the issue. The pursuit of past lives would ideally be an endless goal. As soon as people give up the idea that they must have every possible advantage before their character is good enough, the problem will be solved. Character advancement is what distinguishes RPG's from shooters. I play RPG's because I want character advancement (ideally endless character advancement).

I too am very much looking forward to legendary TR, even if they never do reduce the other past lives. You say 6 years like it is too much. I would say not enough. Mostly because you want to be "done" with your character and I never do. I would be more than happy for them to allow us 5 or more copies of each past life. Why would I ever want the game to tell me that I'm done developing my character (and thus take away my motivation to play him)?

 

[erethizon1]

Would front loading the power from the grind affect your enjoyment of the game. Mainly if they reverse racial AP to be AP/Stat/SP would the skill point not be enough motivation to go after or have no affect on your desire to play in order to get those skill points. If skill point not enough motivation how about AP/SP/Stat and being motivated to get the stat bonus?

My position have been while I would not mind total grind being reduce, I would also be just as happy if total grind remain same but some of the power from the grind being a bit more front loaded and I wondering if something like that would make the game less fun to someone that enjoys the idea of a endless grind.

Front loading would be no problem at all. I don't have an issue making it easier to get most of the power. I personally just don't ever want to run out of something to pursue and I particularly enjoy the past life system because I like the early game in most MMO's much more than the later game.

 

[rabidfox]

The problem is that players assume they should just have all the past lives possible.

^ 100% this. People thinking they need them all is an issue; it's a psychological trap for some folks.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

^ 100% this. People thinking they need them all is an issue; it's a psychological trap for some folks.

Not everyone wants the PLs because they think "this is where the endgame begins". Just like erethizon1 says they have no desire for their character to be finished, some people want to feel like their character is "finished". I don't think either view is flawed/better than the other.

Also, while it is true you don't need every single PL... some of the PLs (racials for instance) open up far more build flexibility. Do you need every PL to run R10s? Nope. We have guildies who push R10 raids with us with less than 20 PLs total. However- PLs do buy you freedom in build choices. So in some ways... yes... having all the PLs does open up new possibilities at endgame- but they are build-specific.

 

[Nickodeamous]

I'll tell you what would make Past Lives more interesting. If i've run a certain number of past lives, I should start at a higher level. why? Because my memory has kobolds new ringleader ingrained in it and there is no way I will ever forget it, so why run it every life?

example:
10 past lives = start at level 2
25 past lives = start at level 3
50 past lives = start at level 4
100 past lives = start at level 5
all past lives = start at level 10

I mean, seriously, we should have a Past Lives Pavilion where you can just fast forward past levels if you've run them 1,000 times. Why should anybody even care to run korthos when they have finished with all their past lives?

I'll go one step further. Once you achieve x amount of past lives, you should just keep your storage favor...

reasons this will never happen include people like me that would spend real $ on 50 pots to speed past levels faster. So, SSG will prob never do something like this. Oh well!

 

[erethizon1]

I'll tell you what would make Past Lives more interesting. If i've run a certain number of past lives, I should start at a higher level. why? Because my memory has kobolds new ringleader ingrained in it and there is no way I will ever forget it, so why run it every life?

example:
10 past lives = start at level 2
25 past lives = start at level 3
50 past lives = start at level 4
100 past lives = start at level 5
all past lives = start at level 10

I mean, seriously, we should have a Past Lives Pavilion where you can just fast forward past levels if you've run them 1,000 times. Why should anybody even care to run korthos when they have finished with all their past lives?

I'll go one step further. Once you achieve x amount of past lives, you should just keep your storage favor...

reasons this will never happen include people like me that would spend real $ on 50 pots to speed past levels faster. So, SSG will prob never do something like this. Oh well!

Why would I want to skip past the low, fun levels? If I have played Korthos 100 times, but legendary quests 200 times (in pursuit of reaper experience), then the Korthos quests will be less boring because they have been less overplayed. What makes DDO great is that you DO get to replay the low level content instead of just grinding the highest content.

 

[Dandonk]

After running a bunch of iconic lives, I recently started on some normal races again (for my last class TRs on my alt). I must say, starting at level 15 was soooo much more enjoyable than starting at 3 (after using the xp stones I had saved). Low level quests are boring, low (r)xp, and you don't have most of your builds defining features yet to have fun with.

Yes, that's how levelling works. I get it. But gaming is supposed to be fun. Finding a way to lessen the boredom of the lowest levels would be great.

(Not only kobold remember Waterworks. I remember it too. After so many years, it's not just that I could do it in my sleep, it's that I AM more or less doing it in my sleep)