How would you buff/rework monks?

[Amideus]

Thinking on it, one of the biggest problems with current monk is that it does have some really good, really strong features which get disregarded.
If you want to do good DPS you don't go wisdom based, it's the unfortunate truth that Sun and Air stance are strictly better dps but people are hyperfixated on wisdom based monk..
But if you don't go wisdom based you don't meet the DCs for the crowd control and and some of the debuffs monk has to offer- both of which are very good and the debuffs are actually unique in some cases.
A quick and dirty fix I'd probably go with is Henshin has "Your monk attacks now use your highest ability score for their DC" and Ninja Spy would have "Dex or Wisdom"

Shintao is overall an issue of being the handwrap dps tree and the monk 'tank' tree and it does not do a good job at either.
I feel Shintao was just designed originally to give very little DPS as the default monk package gave so much extra damage to handwraps/unarmed and those default bonuses ended up interacting in a very unhealthy way with a later revamp to handwraps to make them into genuine weapons.
That default package got nerfed, the handwraps themselves got nerfed and Shintao never got tuned up to address this.
Whenever there is a discussion about handwraps monk players are very fixated on giving that default damage back but I would argue this is simply the wrong answer.
Handwraps as a category are in fact incredibly powerful, no other melee weapon has full damage modifier on the offhand by default and it has the highest rate of attack of all two weapon fighting animations.
When it comes to monks and handwraps Shintao simply needs damage buffs and monk players need to stop sacrificing DPS by using a stance which offers none and playing focused on a stat with awful metasupport.

Wisdom is honestly the weakest stat in the metagame for everything, the filigree options are inferior, the racial options are overall lacking in comparison. The only wisdom class that excells is druid and that's simply because they're simply overtuned enough even relative to sorcerers and alchemists to offset the difference.

I think there's a few misconceptions in some of what you're talking about in relation to Monk. Before that though, I do agree with you about the Shintao tree not properly supporting either unarmed dps or tanking properly. It has two focuses and manages to do neither of them justice. However I do think there are several incredibly strong options in that tree that any small individual tweak to one of the options will greatly resolve the issue. Namely access to MMR cap for tanks, or access to a better unarmed support.

As for the stance situation I couldn't disagree more about wisdom vs the other stats. Wisdom for the unarmed builds does SO MUCH. With Falconry (yea I know, universal tax but people run inquisitive all the time) unarmed monks get AC, Move DC, and Hit and Damage all from that stat. And of course the only class in meta using wisdom is druid, there's only 3 classes that scale off wisdom in the game. Druid, cleric, and monk (FvS is I think either or, so most go charisma from what I have seen). So yea, the sample size there is kinda low. But wisdom monks have the same benefit for damage which also getting full range on their special attacks. So that is just a wild aspect of monks and it really speaks to the issues with the class as a baseline that people aren't running them in higher reaper content, when they have ranged stun and flesh to stone that BOTH affect reapers. And I think that comes down a lot to survivability. Non-tank monks are just paper thin, and tank monks are not quite up to the standard as other tanks. They work for sure, but there are clear winners and losers. As for the stances, you could literally take the stats off monk stances and they would STILL get used. People aren't using them for the primary attributes, they want the secondary bonuses. And those bonuses work regardless of stat focus. Sun stance generates the most ki and the bonus to tactics addresses any issues with a loss of 2 wisdom. I think the main drag on handwraps is that even with Swords to Plowshares, their crit profile is just subpar, and shintao doesn't deal with imbue at all. Maybe if there was baseline imbue that might be good, but even Sacred Fist is struggling at endgame. So it seems to be that centered handwraps as a dps option isn't viable currently and it's not 100% clear why. There's a lot of little factors at the moment.

For shortsword monks, I just don't see people being all that interested in them. Ninja Spy just doesn't seem to really bring in popularity. Maybe worth a rework but I wouldn't know where to begin. Definitely don't discount the monkcher and thrower builds though. They pack some serious damage and don't care about DCs. I do think that finishers could certainly use some love in the DC category.

 

[gravisrs]

1. Monk stances -> Imbue dices (eg lesser/regular/greater/ultimate wind stance = 1d4/1d6/1d8/1d10 electric imbue, 100% melee/ranged power scale) + keep the passive bonuses as-is. Give imbue dices somewhere to monk cores.
2. Remove current monk ki fist activate hits and finishers (combos) - but make current finishers as ki-cost cleaves that works like Eldritch Strike (elemental depends on current stance). Move all stance extra effects to this cleave (healing shield, bonuses from enhancement trees etc).
3. Make meditation insta-replenish (or another stance, that instead of imbue - gives extra ki on hit).
4. Give ranged monks some love (zen archers).
5. make Lighting the Candle - set off flammable objects (torches in inferno of the damned etc)

 

[Misadventure]

Monk needs AC/PRR/MRR/spell resistance/ elemental resistance/dodge/saves/resistance that goes with levels. Its there in PnP d&d. (Except PRR/MRR which is a ddo thing.)

End game monk should be the strongest out of all the classes. Its there in PnP d&d.

By 20 monks should be able to laugh when mobs hit them. (0 damage) Its there in PnP d&d.

By 20 monks should be able to dodge aoe damage. Its there in PnP d&d.

By 30 monks should be able to stand there and bosses cant hit them. (Evasion/dodge) Its there in PnP d&d.

Yes monks should be the most OP out of all end game builts. Its there in PnP d&d.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Ninja Spy would have "Dex or Wisdom"

Dex and Wis, really. Currently NS is clearly only ranged tree and you need both stat for Attack, Damage and Damage boost.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Ninja Spy, specifically for a shuriken thrower, needs a whole lot of active abilities & to be rebuilt as a ranged tree with everything scaling off dexterity &/or ranged power.

Totally agree.

Context - leveling my alt as a pure monk thrower. It is tediously boring as the best dps is loading up an auto clicker and holding w. There isn't anything else to do because there are basically no active effects or attacks in the tree. KI is very limited because contemplation (heshin) powers 10k stars refreshes & that's about it.

Fully disagree, lol. Best part pure monk thrower build - not play piano like Henshin or Shintao. SD Epic Strike, Pin Shot, 10k Stars, Abundant Step, Stealth, Flash Bang - already more than enough!

I'd recommend three or four active attacks that don't use ki (or they do and extra ki gen is added to allow them to be used).

No-no-no!!!

- t2 Fan of knives (copy straight from vistani)

We already have almost same at Core 4... no one use it.

- t3 smoke bomb (a la alchemist spell, but make it the pre-nerf version & with shorter duration)

Already have Flash Bang.

- t4 glue bomb (a la alchemist spell, same cooldown)

If only as multiselector to Flash Bang at T3.

- t5 ranged attack to cause helplessness (a la falconry's diving attack)

Well... mebbe...

Change sting of the ninja imbue to t1.

Good as it. Monk lvl 3, 10 AP in tree... totally achievable.

Remove elemental strikes & change ninjitsu to ranged attacks which allow debuffs to stack:

Remove strikes - yea, add another annoying piano attacks - solid no.

Cores should add in +1 imbue & + 3 ranged power

Agreed again.

t5 should include a ranged version of assassinate, assassins trick, and a fan of knives effect but for CC (sleep darts?)

Ranged Assassinate - clearly yes, Assassin trick must be Core 4 instead useless Poisoned Darts, solid no to fan knives. Better passive upgrade Flash Bang to more powerful version, like Stun instead Daze etc...

 

[misterski]

Yes monks should be the most OP out of all end game builts. Its there in PnP d&d.

In 3E and 3.5E yes. In 5E and 5.5E (One D&D() monks are weak.

 

[Natashaelle]

Make a Friar Archetype based on Western Monks ?

 

[saekee]

what is the generl take on Sting of the Ninja? Poison stacks on crit only. Would you make it different, and different depending on whether the attack is ranged or not? I think it should not work on wraps unless the are spiked in some way.

Short sword usage in the tree is so lackluster. Even outside the fact that is takes 20 levels to get to bard 3 swash levels, what else might encourage their use? Maybe core 2: while using a short sword or kama, your melee attacks gain +1 ki. It’s the little things…

 

[Vox]

Fully disagree, lol. Best part pure monk thrower build - not play piano like Henshin or Shintao. SD Epic Strike, Pin Shot, 10k Stars, Abundant Step, Stealth, Flash Bang - already more than enough!

Agree to disagree, to get the most out of builds there should be high level twitch & piano play. High reaper should require player skill, not just pressing 1-6 on rotation. Nothing is stopping the player from playing like you've suggested.

We already have almost same at Core 4... no one use it.

It's not the same thing. Consider the shuriken thrower leveling experience. I think everyone who has ever tried playing shuriken thrower can agree it is the most miserable thing in the game. It is extremely boring and slow due to single target & the lowest damage of all weapons in general.

Adding fan of knives at least gives the player something else to do, and a hint at AoE. It is also thematic with the enhancement tree. Yes it is already available via vistani... maybe that's a reasonable opportunity cost? Yeah Core 4 darts should change to a t2 instead.

There still needs to be more ki gen somewhere as there is not enough during leveling when you do not recoup it from weapon hits.

Already have Flash Bang.

It's not the same thing. Smoke bomb is also thematic to the tree.

Good as it. Monk lvl 3, 10 AP in tree... totally achievable.

Again, consider the miserable leveling experience, especially low levels.

 

[Misadventure]

In 3E and 3.5E yes. In 5E and 5.5E (One D&D() monks are weak.

DDO suppose to be 3E

 

[Phoenicis]

DDO suppose to be 3E

that ship sailed a decade or more ago.

 

[Amideus]

that ship sailed a decade or more ago.

DDO has been integrating concepts from 3.5, 4e, and 5e into the game over its lifetime in addition to special features they are creating on their own. Monk stances, ki, and elemental attacks with finishers are an entire DDO fabrication and it worked back in the day. Unfortunately as the game has evolved, these features haven't. Which is sad when you realize that the core Monk features they have changed are all nerfs. (except handwraps. Good on the handwraps change. I like that one)

There's no need to make DDO emulate specific parts of PnP just because PnP did it. There's also no reason to assume subjective opinions on the power level of certain classes should also apply here. What should be the focus is making a solid and enjoyable gameplay experience out of the classes in a way that supports the design focus for the game while not creating any new problems.

I think this is one of those "less is more" concepts. Monks have a lot of cool ideas that functionally don't feel good to use. Finishing moves are borderline useless. What was once the defining feature of the class, the standout point, does nothing. The attacks have such horrible DCs you never want to use them. The buffs from light are not exclusive so they rarely ever work (except earth which had a single raid niche usage, and that raid is no longer meta) and it's also pretty clear that the ED system did not carry over these core ideas so why are they still around? It feels like a tax on the class at this point.

The problem with finishers:
They are very weak/useless. Their effects are not worth the 25-40 ki and the 12 seconds required to activate them.
They are buggy. There is a solid 20% chance that the finishing move you activated will not go off.
They are frustrating/infuriating to use. There are more restrictions on what breaks a finishing move, than on when you can spell cast. Which is ABSURD.

The benefits of my proposed changes are:
Strikes turning into imbues allows them to scale and interact with imbue dice benefits.
Finishers turning into ki-spells allows their DCs to be updated and their effects to be tweaked while removing the hassle of finisher restrictions.
Both ki spells and imbues are consistent with the rest of the game. New players and existing players will understand what they are, they are standardized, and they are easy to use and understand. And it doesn't require a new system either, we already have them.

Simple changes that reduce complexity and increase performance are going to in the long run be far more effective than complex and complicated mechanics to me.

 

[Douglas Glyndwr]

Roll back every. Single. Nerf.

 

[peng]

I've been playing monk for a *while*. I have *thoughts*. In no particular order:

• PRR, MRR, and MRR cap that scale with monk levels
• elemental imbue tied to stances
• the stance bonuses need to scale better
• each stance should have a (better) way to make your ki go farther (eg earth gives 1/2/3/4 ki on being hit or missed, fire gives +1/2/3/4 ki on hit, ocean gives 1/2/3/4 passive ki gen, wind gives a 20/30/40/50% discount on ki costs)
• wind stance needs to give bonuses to ranged as well as melee
• some way to gain magic missile immunity other than clickies, umd, or epic destinies
• wholeness of body and meditation need to give more ki/healing *and* take significantly less time to use. at *most* they should take 12 seconds, preferably less
• empty body, wholeness of body, and meditation should reduce incoming damage while active
• quivering palm needs a dc boost, and maybe an extra [w] die or two
• the flurry of blows bonus to BAB should apply to feat pre-requisites like martial arts, fighting style, and improved critical feats
• more handwraps damage. either give us back our weapon dice, or make the unarmed strike bonus also give attack *and* damage
• monk finishers and slas need to scale better, both by monk levels and melee/ranged/spell power (eg have the healing finisher deal 1d6+2 per lvl instead of 1d4 + 1d4 per lvl, and scaling with the higher of positive or 2x or even 3x melee/ranged power)
• monk finishers should only need 2 attacks to charge, not 3, and get rid of the internal cooldown on finishers
• monk finishers shouldn't be lost if you open a door, or try to buff someone out of range, etc
• perfect self should give +1 passive ki gen
• henshin mystic should get the quarterstaff attack speed by level 12 at the absolute *latest*. a level 1 rogue ability shouldn't be a level 20 monk ability

 

[misterski]

DDO has been integrating concepts from 3.5, 4e, and 5e into the game over its lifetime in addition to special features they are creating on their own. Monk stances, ki, and elemental attacks with finishers are an entire DDO fabrication and it worked back in the day. Unfortunately as the game has evolved, these features haven't. Which is sad when you realize that the core Monk features they have changed are all nerfs. (except handwraps. Good on the handwraps change. I like that one)

There's no need to make DDO emulate specific parts of PnP just because PnP did it. There's also no reason to assume subjective opinions on the power level of certain classes should also apply here. What should be the focus is making a solid and enjoyable gameplay experience out of the classes in a way that supports the design focus for the game while not creating any new problems.

I think this is one of those "less is more" concepts. Monks have a lot of cool ideas that functionally don't feel good to use. Finishing moves are borderline useless. What was once the defining feature of the class, the standout point, does nothing. The attacks have such horrible DCs you never want to use them. The buffs from light are not exclusive so they rarely ever work (except earth which had a single raid niche usage, and that raid is no longer meta) and it's also pretty clear that the ED system did not carry over these core ideas so why are they still around? It feels like a tax on the class at this point.

The problem with finishers:
They are very weak/useless. Their effects are not worth the 25-40 ki and the 12 seconds required to activate them.
They are buggy. There is a solid 20% chance that the finishing move you activated will not go off.
They are frustrating/infuriating to use. There are more restrictions on what breaks a finishing move, than on when you can spell cast. Which is ABSURD.

The benefits of my proposed changes are:
Strikes turning into imbues allows them to scale and interact with imbue dice benefits.
Finishers turning into ki-spells allows their DCs to be updated and their effects to be tweaked while removing the hassle of finisher restrictions.
Both ki spells and imbues are consistent with the rest of the game. New players and existing players will understand what they are, they are standardized, and they are easy to use and understand. And it doesn't require a new system either, we already have them.

Simple changes that reduce complexity and increase performance are going to in the long run be far more effective than complex and complicated mechanics to me.

You forgot the biggest problem with finishers. They take long enough to work up that by the time you can use them the mobs are dead and then the combo wears off and you have to build it back up again. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

 

[Amideus]

You forgot the biggest problem with finishers. They take long enough to work up that by the time you can use them the mobs are dead and then the combo wears off and you have to build it back up again. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

I didn't forget that. It's included in this "They are frustrating/infuriating to use. There are more restrictions on what breaks a finishing move, than on when you can spell cast. Which is ABSURD." as well as two other posts in this same thread I made. When I say restrictions on the finishing moves what I mean is:

It takes time to unlock them. You have to spend several seconds putting in the moves.
Once activated, you MUST either hold it or use it. Which makes timing what you need incredibly awkward.
If you do ANYTHING other than use another monk ability or meditate it cancels your finisher completely.

And no, I don't think this is actually the biggest problem with the finishers. I think the biggest problem with the finishers is how utterly useless they are. Even if you turned the current finishers into ki spells you could activate at will for 15 ki each anytime you wanted, they would STILL not get used because their effects are so utterly useless. So it's actually worse that their effects are so worthless than the massive investment for using them. Because something that is useful but requires a lot of investment will get used despite how difficult it is to use. Something that is useless will not get used no matter how easy it is to use. And the finishers land soundly in the second category with the DCs always being too low in every content, the baseline finishers being super weak, and the only finisher of value being the healing ki which is just as good as any general healing spell. I mean maybe the buffs are ok, but the spell point reduction buff does nothing for the monk themselves and other classes have access to it from bard the actual class that has spell points. The stun immunity is very niche and only lasts 1 minute, the heroism is well heroism, it's on level 5 items now, and the blur is blur which again is on EVERYTHING and doesn't matter in reaper.

 

[misterski]

I didn't forget that. It's included in this "They are frustrating/infuriating to use. There are more restrictions on what breaks a finishing move, than on when you can spell cast. Which is ABSURD." as well as two other posts in this same thread I made. When I say restrictions on the finishing moves what I mean is:

It takes time to unlock them. You have to spend several seconds putting in the moves.
Once activated, you MUST either hold it or use it. Which makes timing what you need incredibly awkward.
If you do ANYTHING other than use another monk ability or meditate it cancels your finisher completely.

And no, I don't think this is actually the biggest problem with the finishers. I think the biggest problem with the finishers is how utterly useless they are. Even if you turned the current finishers into ki spells you could activate at will for 15 ki each anytime you wanted, they would STILL not get used because their effects are so utterly useless. So it's actually worse that their effects are so worthless than the massive investment for using them. Because something that is useful but requires a lot of investment will get used despite how difficult it is to use. Something that is useless will not get used no matter how easy it is to use. And the finishers land soundly in the second category with the DCs always being too low in every content, the baseline finishers being super weak, and the only finisher of value being the healing ki which is just as good as any general healing spell. I mean maybe the buffs are ok, but the spell point reduction buff does nothing for the monk themselves and other classes have access to it from bard the actual class that has spell points. The stun immunity is very niche and only lasts 1 minute, the heroism is well heroism, it's on level 5 items now, and the blur is blur which again is on EVERYTHING and doesn't matter in reaper.

I say that because even if you made them more useful you still run into the problem of not being able to use them much of the time. The entire system needs to be scrapped or redesigned; the current incarnation is outdated and doesn't fit with the way the game works right now. Just look at the outcry against the builder/spender system in the original ED revamp that the devs backed away from. People knew such a system wou8ldn't work well in DDO because of prior experience with the crappy monk combo/finisher system.

 

[Amideus]

I say that because even if you made them more useful you still run into the problem of not being able to use them much of the time. The entire system needs to be scrapped or redesigned; the current incarnation is outdated and doesn't fit with the way the game works right now. Just look at the outcry against the builder/spender system in the original ED revamp that the devs backed away from. People knew such a system wou8ldn't work well in DDO because of prior experience with the crappy monk combo/finisher system.

I agree with you on the system being outdated and needs to be removed. That's kind of the core of my suggestions. But I still disagree with you on the which is the worse part front. Because I do use healing ki, and the buffs when leveling my monk. despite the frustration and limitations in the system, and the rather small benefit, they are still worth hitting the buttons for rarely. But they are the exceptions and not the rules.
I think the best solutions is to:

1. Figure out which of the spenders they would like to keep as ki spells.
2. Decide how to make them more effective.
3. Determine the best method of delivery for them.

Personally would like to see each of the Master of Forms talents grant ki spells, converted versions of the finishers/maybe some new ones.
Maybe each of the feats grants forms, +1 imbue dice, and 1/2 ki spells. Maybe a bit powerful for a feat slot, but then again maybe not? The forms are just minor buffs to the stats on a form. So is 1 imbue dice and 1 ki spell ability too powerful for a feat slot? I like to think not. Considering you have to be a monk and a specific character level for them.

 

[J1NG]

I would add to the higher end Cores of each Monk Enhancement Tree for a start. Things that Monk "should" have had, should be re-included into the Cores to prevent front-loading low hanging fruit for anyone to splash into and obtain. After all, Monks are all about the training and time to become how deadly they're supposed to be in 3e/3.5e at cap. Not really early on. So Damage dice increase, etc in Cores 5/6, etc.

Finisher Moves I would adjust a bit, as currently the Light Finishers are ALL buffs. Dark are ALL strikes. etc. I would move some around where Light has some strikes too, and Dark has some buffs too. Also, update the Finishers so that instead of just a +1W damage or even +3W on landing a hit (in most cases you don't even get that), update the Finishers to there's a small debuff/effect on landing BESIDES the main DC save effect (as approrpiate). This is because right now once you go up against a boss, Finisher Strikes are pointless, as the damage they increase is not worth the time invested into getting them ready. And they are flat out immune to the DC effects, even should they fail the save.

Keep Stances. Possibly adjust, but will need more thought on that.

Add back in some of the missing Monk features (Tongue of the Sun and Moon) and adjust them to more suitable DDO effects. (5 + 1/2 Monk Level Linguist Skills - Diplo/Bluff/Intim for example, given this is a high level ability and in most cases give a chance that this might be useful for a Monk that would otherwise never be useful on a Monk as you can never get enough in the first place). Adjust Perfect Self to semi-5e state and provide Passive Ki generation whilst also changing it from DR 10/Epic to DR 10/Epic and/or 10% Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeon/Missile Damage Reduction.

Something along those lines is how I'd alter the Monk.

J1NG

 

[Fisto Mk I]

wind stance needs to give bonuses to ranged as well as melee

Wing stance already provide bonuses to range - 15% non-stacking Ranged Alacrity and 15% stacking Throwing Alacrity.

• more handwraps damage. either give us back our weapon dice, or make the unarmed strike bonus also give attack *and* damage
• monk finishers and slas need to scale better, both by monk levels and melee/ranged/spell power (eg have the healing finisher deal 1d6+2 per lvl instead of 1d4 + 1d4 per lvl, and scaling with the higher of positive or 2x or even 3x melee/ranged power)
• monk finishers should only need 2 attacks to charge, not 3, and get rid of the internal cooldown on finishers
• monk finishers shouldn't be lost if you open a door, or try to buff someone out of range, etc

Finisher Moves I would adjust a bit, as currently the Light Finishers are ALL buffs. Dark are ALL strikes. etc. I would move some around where Light has some strikes too, and Dark has some buffs too. Also, update the Finishers so that instead of just a +1W damage or even +3W on landing a hit (in most cases you don't even get that), update the Finishers to there's a small debuff/effect on landing BESIDES the main DC save effect (as approrpiate). This is because right now once you go up against a boss, Finisher Strikes are pointless, as the damage they increase is not worth the time invested into getting them ready. And they are flat out immune to the DC effects, even should they fail the save.

Finisher Moves system based on corrupted initially builder/spender system must be removed at all. All Elemental attacks must be converted to Imbue Dice, currently finishers - to SLA.