How would you buff/rework monks?

[misterski]

I've been playing monk for a *while*. I have *thoughts*. In no particular order:

• elemental imbue tied to stances
• the flurry of blows bonus to BAB should apply to feat pre-requisites like martial arts, fighting style, and improved critical feats

Love most of these ideas but these two, no. Imbues should be a separate toggle not tied to your stance.

As for the other suggestion, no because flurry of blows is based on your being centered. This is similar to the reason why stats granted by enhancements and items cannot be used for feat prerequisites, they can change after you get the feat.

 

[peng]

Wing stance already provide bonuses to range - 15% non-stacking Ranged Alacrity and 15% stacking Throwing Alacrity.

Wind provides melee attack speed, thrown attack speed, and doublestrike. It provides no doubleshot, and no bow attack speed.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Wind provides melee attack speed, thrown attack speed, and doublestrike. It provides no doubleshot, and no bow attack speed.

Yea, you correct, but non-stacking Alacrity irrelevant anyway because Speed gear or Haste spell, and stacking Throwing Alacrity still ranged bonus.

 

[Amideus]

Yea, you correct, but non-stacking Alacrity irrelevant anyway because Speed gear or Haste spell, and stacking Throwing Alacrity still ranged bonus.

I was thinking about this last night. Suggestions to updating the monk stances:
Fire stances - Remove the wisdom penalty. Leave everything else in place. This stance is by far the best. Bonus strength does nothing for dex/wis monks and SF, but that's irrelevant.
Earth Stances - Remove the negative dexterity and movespeed penalty (this has been removed from the fighter/paladin stances but not monk). Everything else on this stance is fine. It does everything you need from a phys tank perspective.
Water Stace - Remove the strength penalty, change the saving throw bonus to MMR cap increase. Monks desperately need a cap increase and this is one way to get it. Again, a lot of what's here is already good.
Wind Stance - Remove the constitution penalty. Change the bonuses from enhancement to a stacking value. Reduce the overall value granted slightly (alacrity only). Values now affect melee, ranged, and thrown as well as doubleshot in addition to doublestrike.

The stances are already so strong in stats value. The problem is very minor with them, just holding on to some outdated concepts. I think removing the penalties and updating water/wind slightly will really make a significant difference. I mean Earth grants 4 Con, 20% AC, and 15 PRR all stacking bonuses. That's pretty nutty for something that doesn't require any investment outside just Monk.

Also update Meditation at war. Revamp the bonuses and remove the penalties... seriously why are there SO MANY negatives for monks using their stances? It just makes them feel bad to use.

 

[misterski]

Also update Meditation at war. Revamp the bonuses and remove the penalties... seriously why are there SO MANY negatives for monks using their stances? It just makes them feel bad to use.

It's a result of old design decisions that have never been revisited. Monks (and wizards) really need a rework badly.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Fire stances - Remove the wisdom penalty. Leave everything else in place. This stance is by far the best. Bonus strength does nothing for dex/wis monks and SF, but that's irrelevant.
Earth Stances - Remove the negative dexterity and movespeed penalty (this has been removed from the fighter/paladin stances but not monk). Everything else on this stance is fine. It does everything you need from a phys tank perspective.

Hit effect "gain Ki" don't work for Ranged attacks, it's problem.

 

[Amideus]

It's a result of old design decisions that have never been revisited. Monks (and wizards) really need a rework badly.

But even with recent changes it feels like there is this stigma that monks have to be counterbalanced by something. Like the moment handwraps started to perform on par with other top melee builds the response was immediately "This is overperforming so we are nerfing the bonus damage dice" which is really frustrating since that was not only a core feature of Monk identity that got hit, it was also a subjective decision that felt really frustrating to people that had stuck with what is considered to be one of the weakest builds the game has had for a long time.

I mean the whole point of a level 20 unarmed monk is that your fists are like dual wielding great axes. That's supposed to be the upside for completely dedicating yourself to one path. And I really fail to see why that would be a problem when casters can just walk through a quest like freaking Steven Seagal and breath on the enemies and watch them die.

 

[Amideus]

I also wanted to point out all the positive changes we have seen so far with the Monk. I think when giving feedback it's good to talk about the things that feel good and feel bad, and also explain why so that a nice healthy balance of feedback is received.

First, handwraps being weapons is great. It allows them to function as expected with all forms of EDs and Enhancements as well as buffs. Overall feels great.

Whirlwind attack requiring less feats also feels great. It's such a core part of monk unarmed with how it interacts with the animations, that removing some of the feat bloat feels amazing. It feels less build constraining and less taxing to fit into more unarmed choices.

Monk endgame item support is still happening which is nice. Unarmed especially tends to need a lot of specialized items like reinforced fists and enhanced ki, and the fact we still get these in the mix feels good for gearing.

 

[misterski]

I also wanted to point out all the positive changes we have seen so far with the Monk. I think when giving feedback it's good to talk about the things that feel good and feel bad, and also explain why so that a nice healthy balance of feedback is received.

First, handwraps being weapons is great. It allows them to function as expected with all forms of EDs and Enhancements as well as buffs. Overall feels great.

Whirlwind attack requiring less feats also feels great. It's such a core part of monk unarmed with how it interacts with the animations, that removing some of the feat bloat feels amazing. It feels less build constraining and less taxing to fit into more unarmed choices.

Monk endgame item support is still happening which is nice. Unarmed especially tends to need a lot of specialized items like reinforced fists and enhanced ki, and the fact we still get these in the mix feels good for gearing.

Handwraps being added to Swords to Plowshares also.

 

[Amideus]

Handwraps being added to Swords to Plowshares also.

Yes Swords to Plowshares, while it still did not bring unarmed up to par with other melee, definitely was a welcome change. I mean it's very clear that base damage, critical threat range, and critical threat multipliers are the single most important aspects of melee dps. It is why we cannot have a Legendary Sword of Shadow because it is that much better than every other weapon of the same type. It's also why the change to improved unarmed feats for monks hurt SO MUCH when that change was made. And it's why Sacred Fist and other melee imbue builds do not work as effectively as pure melee.

Paladins succeed because THF is so incredibly strong now, they get all the paladin bonuses to threat and multiplier, so the imbue isn't the focus it is the boost on top.

Eldritch Knights are just also spellcasters on top of their imbue damage.

This is why Sacred Fist just falls off a cliff past level 20. Imbue damage does not scale anywhere near as effectively as melee damage or spellcasting. The base dice are just not up to snuff and so the damage falls off really hard, on top of them just not having access to the kind of CC options Monks bring.

 

[rabidfox]

The builder/finishers need ranged versions (the same way paladin got ranged exalted smite a while back). It would make bow/shuri builds interesting.

 

[Amideus]

I really want to reiterate MMR again. And also why does AC feel like it's completely useless? I understand that back in the day AC was either entirely useless or ungodly overpowered, and it all depended on how you well you could hit an arbitrary range. So they redid the formula to make it feel like everyone could use AC to some degree. But I am sitting at 110 AC at level 22 on my current like and I am hit 100% of the time. It NEVER avoids the autos. Only dodges. So it feels like now AC does nothing for anyone anymore. Not sure if anyone else has noticed this. Perhaps at the extreme height of AC, but isn't that the entire point of the AC rework to remove that feeling?

 

[Fisto Mk I]

It is why we cannot have a Legendary Sword of Shadow because it is that much better than every other weapon of the same type.

But but... we have Legendary Staff of the Shadow, and it's much better than every other weapon of the same type. So?

The builder/finishers need ranged versions (the same way paladin got ranged exalted smite a while back). It would make bow/shuri builds interesting.

No-no-no! Builder/spender system corrupted in core and it's why we all was so unhappy when devs propose such "upgrade" to ED while ED revamping and why we all (exclude you, mebbe? ) protest so actively. My main is shuri-thrower and i don't need any builder/spender gose at all. Wanna this? Play Shintao and don't try "fix" my playstyle especially when no one asks you to!
Yea, paladin got bugged and don't working ranged smite (until 15 June, when i personally send bug report and bug was fixed) and Exalted Ranged Smite... but this has nothing to do with builder/spender you are offering. Just another active ability.

 

[SilentRunning]

1 thing would be to remove the builders and set the finishers up as a skill activation once you have the right amount of Ki to do so.

 

[Dalsheel]

It'd help if people stopped being so fixated on that 2.5w honestly, an average of 7 damage (12.5 on a raid weapon) is not the make or break you think it is

Let's see...
2.5[1d6+3] = 2.5 x 6.5 = 16.25 average.
Now let's assume 300 melee power and this becomes 65 damage per hit. I'd say it's a decent number, considering it get's multiplied on crits.

I stopped playing monks when they implemented this nerf and I won't play the class again untill they bring it back. And it was my favourite class.

 

[Mand O'Lin]

I really want to reiterate MMR again. And also why does AC feel like it's completely useless? I understand that back in the day AC was either entirely useless or ungodly overpowered, and it all depended on how you well you could hit an arbitrary range. So they redid the formula to make it feel like everyone could use AC to some degree. But I am sitting at 110 AC at level 22 on my current like and I am hit 100% of the time. It NEVER avoids the autos. Only dodges. So it feels like now AC does nothing for anyone anymore. Not sure if anyone else has noticed this. Perhaps at the extreme height of AC, but isn't that the entire point of the AC rework to remove that feeling?

AC does work, but the requirement is quite high. In high reaper endgame content, AC starts to become effective when well above 400... say 450+. 500+ is ideal.

I agree that there is a problem with this, but doubt it will be corrected.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

1 thing would be to remove the builders and set the finishers up as a skill activation once you have the right amount of Ki to do so.

Exactly, it was we suggest early in this thread.

 

[SilentRunning]

Exactly, it was we suggest early in this thread.

I was saying the same thing on the old forums, the whole builder with a cooldown was ludicrous. I mean by the time you get to the finisher, everything is already dead.

 

[Amideus]

AC does work, but the requirement is quite high. In high reaper endgame content, AC starts to become effective when well above 400... say 450+. 500+ is ideal.

I agree that there is a problem with this, but doubt it will be corrected.

I'm playing Epic Elite quests in Keep on the Borderlands at level 22 with 110 AC, which is quite good for that level, and I never avoid a hit outside of dodge. Something is definitely wrong with the formula these days.

 

[Xgya]

Add some imbue dice to the other Monk trees.
Find some way to make the elemental fist attacks and finishers scale off Imbue Dice too.
Those are so weak as they currently are that they're not even worth the space on an action bar.

Something like a temporary but stacking imbue for a few seconds after you use one such strike would do wonders.
The finishers getting better potential lategame scaling seems like a no-brainer. Unlike casters, Monks never get an upgrade to their Burning Hands, so they don't get to find a new and improved icon to place on their hotbars - it's breath of the fire dragon or nothing. Which in this case generally means nothing. And that's sad.