Lamannia U66 Preview 1 Release Notes

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Nickodeamous

Nickodeamous

Well-known member
I think an internal tumble cooldown would be better than removing it. I actually missed this when I was on Lam and thought it was just a bug that I couldn't tumble while running. lol

Anyway, tumbling is already a pain if you have to stop to do it. Leave it on, but add a cooldown of a second or so. At least it would help some folks keep up with vets.
 
Ooblagato

Ooblagato

Hiding in plain sight
Just so it's clear to the devs/designers, there is a minority that dislikes the aesthetics of tumbling for movement speed, while the majority of the player base really appreciates what it brings to the table. While most of the players would be very happy if you just left it in the game, I think the majority of them are willing to compromise for the aesthetics argument by replacing it with two things:

  1. Ability to use tumbles as a quick burst of speed when needed (primarily combat/trap situations) as experimental tumble currently provides.
    Charges based cooldowns seems to be the most reasonable and balanced approach for this.
    • About 1 recharge per 1~3 seconds with a stock of up to 4~8 should be appropriate.
  2. A general increase in player speed available to all classes that doesn't lock players into certain classes or combat styles.
    Adding 30-100% movement speed available via one or more of the following
    • Tumble skill increases movement speed based on skill level
    • A low tier enhancement in a universal enhancement tree
    • A feat that stacks with other movement increases
    • More movement speed item effects
    • Having unused tumble stacks increases movement speed (best to avoid due to significant rubber banding issues when a player's movement speed changes)
    • A flat increase in base running speed
 
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Nezyrex

Nezyrex

Member
Ooblagato said:
Just so it's clear to the devs/designers, there is a minority that dislikes the aesthetics of tumbling for movement speed, while the majority of the player base really appreciates what it brings to the table. While most of the players would be very happy if you just left it in the game, I think the majority of them are willing to compromise for the aesthetics argument by replacing it with two things:

  1. Ability to use tumbles as a quick burst of speed when needed (primarily combat/trap situations) as experimental tumble currently provides.
    Charges based cooldowns seems to be the most reasonable and balanced approach for this.
    • About 1 recharge per 1~3 seconds with a stock of up to 4~8 should be appropriate.
  2. A general increase in player speed available to all classes that doesn't lock players into certain classes or combat styles.
    Adding 30-100% movement speed available via one or more of the following
    • Tumble skill increases movement speed based on skill level
    • A low tier enhancement in a universal enhancement tree
    • A feat that stacks with other movement increases
    • More movement speed item effects
    • Having unused tumble stacks increases movement speed (best to avoid due to significant rubber banding issues when a player's movement speed changes)
    • A flat increase in base running speed
Click to expand...
I agree with everything here, ...however-

I may be putting words in the dev's mouths with this, so I'd love for them to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am currently under the impression that the playerbase as a whole is already moving too fast in their eyes. It seems to me that they believe (probably correctly) that the high player speeds we currently have are contributing to the server lag induced by too many enemies loading at once, or in rapid succession, *mostly* due to "Zerging".

I understand nobody likes spending long times just walking places, but I would be expecting an overall nerf to player speed, not a buff.

Perhaps a good compromise would be a buff to specifically out of combat speeds? So the same way reaper's healing penalty ends when the dust settles, once combat ends, you get a big boost to movement speed, maybe half what a horse gives? (Perhaps typed as an action or enhancement bonus to help close gaps in player speed?) Hopefully since there is already code for determining the end of combat for the reaper heals, it could be reused to apply this travel boost! (I believe one of the main reasons we don't get new features/reworks is that it takes significant labor)

This is all just one noob's thoughts, though I hope it can help!
 
B

Butthurt

New member
Tolero said:
:
  • Experimental Tumble Controls have been disabled.
Click to expand...

Tumble Nerf bad

Appreciate things like leaping and spring attacking and other things that make character move fast like an FPS game

in contrast to other things that slow progress like Elevator Platforms, miscellaneous lag, Ladders
 
I

in4theride75

Member
Nezyrex said:
The removal of Experimental Tumble controls is ONLY a nerf to Accessibility.

You can literally still do it manually. I imagine it would be incredibly easy to macro.
Click to expand...
This is true and has been since day one. Let me see if I can explain how tumble works under the hood with some sudo code.
DDO uses a key depress state to determine if block is accessible, something along lines like this

if (shift==down){
moveSpeed==0,
block==true,
dodgeRoll==true
}

The problem that this causes is that once the animation for dodge has started if the block key is released moveSpeed == 100 even though the animation is playing. Essentially what that means is that if you press block, move, and release block right away you get a bonus to movement speed equal to the dodge animation distance divided by the animation completion time.
The reason that none of this was a problem before experimental tumble was you couldn't hold the move key and tap block to tumble. You had to repress the move key after every animation cycle which was far, far, more difficult than just taping shift after the animation cycle. If this timing wasn't frame exact you'd have a fraction of a second where you would pause and not move at all which erased all forward movement. In practice you wouldn't get a noticeable speed increase until your tumble was in the 30s or you were using a macro.

If they wanted to fix the speed boost to tumble all they'd have to do is add a line of code like this;

if (dodgeRollAnimation==true){
moveSpeed==0
}
 
Nezyrex

Nezyrex

Member
in4theride75 said:
This is true and has been since day one. Let me see if I can explain how tumble works under the hood with some sudo code.
DDO uses a key depress state to determine if block is accessible, something along lines like this

if (shift==down){
moveSpeed==0,
block==true,
dodgeRoll==true
}

The problem that this causes is that once the animation for dodge has started if the block key is released moveSpeed == 100 even though the animation is playing. Essentially what that means is that if you press block, move, and release block right away you get a bonus to movement speed equal to the dodge animation distance divided by the animation completion time.
The reason that none of this was a problem before experimental tumble was you couldn't hold the move key and tap block to tumble. You had to repress the move key after every animation cycle which was far, far, more difficult than just taping shift after the animation cycle. If this timing wasn't frame exact you'd have a fraction of a second where you would pause and not move at all which erased all forward movement. In practice you wouldn't get a noticeable speed increase until your tumble was in the 30s or you were using a macro.

If they wanted to fix the speed boost to tumble all they'd have to do is add a line of code like this;

if (dodgeRollAnimation==true){
moveSpeed==0
}
Click to expand...
Everyone forgets they also removed the huge delay at the end of tumble where you couldn't move. That's the actual big change that made tumble useful.

Also on Lamannia you need to release shift after starting the tumble in order to achieve high speeds, you cannot just hold shift and spam W. You've never been able to go fast doing that, you can't on live servers right now even. You lightly tap shift on live to go fast, and the window is fairly small if you have 36+ tumble for the faster animation.
 
I

in4theride75

Member
Nezyrex said:
Everyone forgets they also removed the huge delay at the end of tumble where you couldn't move. That's the actual big change that made tumble useful.

Also on Lamannia you need to release shift after starting the tumble in order to achieve high speeds, you cannot just hold shift and spam W. You've never been able to go fast doing that, you can't on live servers right now even. You lightly tap shift on live to go fast, and the window is fairly small if you have 36+ tumble for the faster animation.
Click to expand...
Nothing you just said except releasing shift is true. I've exploited tumble for years to move faster in quests and will continue to do so after they remove experimental tumble. I will even teach you how to do it, if you want, on a live server if you tell me which server you are on and one of your toon names.

What you are mistaken about with tumble is probably this release note in u60
-The pause at the end of tumbling with the Experimental Tumble Controls has been removed, allowing for a seamless Dodge experience.
This was an experimental tumble change and had nothing to do with the fundamental code that gives tumble a move speed buff.
 
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seph1roth5

seph1roth5

Well-known member
The problem people have with tumble is the speed. Can't you just...not have it be it's own speed based on tumble? and just have you tumble at your movement speed?
 
I

in4theride75

Member
CBDunk said:
The fact that you can use tumble to move faster was first added to the wiki more than 13 years ago.
Click to expand...

Shear-buckler said:
It says you can tumble to match hasted movement speed. That's not "use tumble to move faster" in any meaningful way.
Click to expand...
Both of your statements are correct. The testing I did on tumble movement speed in 2011 was base tumble animation speed without adding movement to it. Those numbers were my observation with tumble only (ie, holding shift and pressing a direction key) and then comparing it to run speed. However, those are the relative bonuses to movement speed you can get when you cancel the blocking state with frame perfect execution. I even had a level 20 pure rogue, hand wrap build designed specifically to exploit old twitch fighting mechanics, solid fog, and tumble.
 
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