Make permanent Hardcore server!

eartheyes

i play on khyber
Protip: we have mentioned how there are people that lack the honor to do that, having an actual server that enforces it is the actual draw to the server.

Second protip: when it happens you stay on your server and we will all stay on ours.
Why is your fun dependent on whether others have the “honor” to delete a toon or not?

if you are a hardcore purist, and there are others that are wanting this, what is stopping you from stating a hardcore guild, on any server of you choice, with all other enthusiast; you can have a self governed permanent hardcore community?!?

just not sure why you need the game to add a permanent hardcore server when you could easily organize With others through a thread like this, and do virtually the same thing on your own?

if there are folks that want to permanently play hardcore, I don't see what is stopping you?
 

Br4d

Well-known member
Why is your fun dependent on whether others have the “honor” to delete a toon or not?

if you are a hardcore purist, and there are others that are wanting this, what is stopping you from stating a hardcore guild, on any server of you choice, with all other enthusiast; you can have a self governed permanent hardcore community?!?

just not sure why you need the game to add a permanent hardcore server when you could easily organize With others through a thread like this, and do virtually the same thing on your own?

if there are folks that want to permanently play hardcore, I don't see what is stopping you?

You can get a lot of people to compete and play on a hardcore basis.

Not if others can cheat though. This is just the way it is. This is demonstrable by the huge populations that will play WoW HC (without any additional incentives) vs the small populations that played and play WoW HC on the RP servers without enforceable perma-death.

It's researchable if you want.
 

eartheyes

i play on khyber
You can get a lot of people to compete and play on a hardcore basis.

Not if others can cheat though. This is just the way it is. This is demonstrable by the huge populations that will play WoW HC (without any additional incentives) vs the small populations that played and play WoW HC on the RP servers without enforceable perma-death.

It's researchable if you want.
im confussed what you are suggesting i research? ...im not really interested in WoW tbh

i guess i dont see it as cheating, that some people play the game as is, while a portion of the community that feels they need the game to be "hard core" to get optimal emjoyment, freely choose to play it as permadeath?!?!

why does it matter to you or those that are posting that the game should have a full time hard core server if another player is grinding out past lives, or some freinds are into role playing, or flower sniffing, maybe people still pvp in the taverns... while you and your buds play with a self imposed hard core style?

i guess i just dont understand how people not playing the game hard core would effect those that choose to play hard core?

i suppose you are suggesting that hard core is only fun for you if you are competing with others for who can accomplish the most things the fastest?
 

DDO Gaming

Well-known member
its kindof strange the way this thread has evolved. I'm pretty sure if SSG did add a "hardcore" checkbox on every quest dialog, nobody would select it.
 

Br4d

Well-known member
why does it matter to you or those that are posting that the game should have a full time hard core server if another player is grinding out past lives, or some freinds are into role playing, or flower sniffing, maybe people still pvp in the taverns... while you and your buds play with a self imposed hard core style?

i guess i just dont understand how people not playing the game hard core would effect those that choose to play hard core?

What I'm suggesting is that the concept of HC only appeals to many people when it is in an enforced HC environment. However once that environment is created many people choose to play HC.

It's just human nature to want to be the best at whatever endeavor you choose and not to have to compete with people who are cheating at the same endeavor.
 

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
I've played a ton of hardcore this season. It has been amazing me for to step back and stop TRing to just play D&D. Liberating. Would this be sustainable with a permanent HC server? Hard to say. I don't see how it would hurt to try though, especially if the development team is losing steam on coming out with ideas for new seasons. Maybe do a season 10 then open a full-time permanent HC server in 2025?
 

Jontheknight

Summoner Expert
its kindof strange the way this thread has evolved. I'm pretty sure if SSG did add a "hardcore" checkbox on every quest dialog, nobody would select it.
You are missing the point, I am pretty sure OP and others are asking for a hardcore server and not a checkbox on quests, but upon character selection so that even if they can't add a hardcore server, at the very least add a hardcore mode for live servers for fun and maybe even bragging rights that someone is playing hardcore on live which I think is a phenomenal idea. So to reiterate its just like some other games where you can have like a special icon on your character showing you are hardcore and haven't died on that toon yet, similarly to runescape ironman where if you die you can still continue your character but now its no longer hardcore, or kinda like BG3 honor mode where you can continue the game with dishonor.

Now can you "Self-Impose" this. Sure yes, but hardcore league has been massively popular and quite frankly I do not personally play live servers because everyone just bum rushing the dangerous with reckless abandon , but hardcore I genuinely meet new players and veterans working together and helping each other out and to see that on live server or even a dedicated hardcore server? Hell yes sign me up, just make hardcoe league a separate thing and its all good.
 

eartheyes

i play on khyber
What I'm suggesting is that the concept of HC only appeals to many people when it is in an enforced HC environment. However once that environment is created many people choose to play HC.

It's just human nature to want to be the best at whatever endeavor you choose and not to have to compete with people who are cheating at the same endeavor.
again though...you refer to it as "cheating" and i just dont get it...why is it cheating to not play permadeath while someone else is playing permadeath?...by that logic there are 8 servers full of cheaters?

for me dungeons and dragons has always been about an immersive, cooperative fantasy story telling/navigating...competing with a bunch of strangers online is not compelling to me or at all why i play DDO.

i truly do not understand why you would be so interested in playing permadeath, then choose to deny yourself that just because there is no permanent hardcore server and/or leader board...but i suppose we play DDO for different reasons.

for the record: i got no problem with a full time hardcore server and hope for you, that you guys get it...i am merely trying to illustrate that no one is holding you back from playing permadeath!!!!!
 

The Narc

Well-known member
I've played a ton of hardcore this season. It has been amazing me for to step back and stop TRing to just play D&D. Liberating. Would this be sustainable with a permanent HC server? Hard to say. I don't see how it would hurt to try though, especially if the development team is losing steam on coming out with ideas for new seasons. Maybe do a season 10 then open a full-time permanent HC server in 2025?
We wont know if it would be sustainable until it goes for a test drive, so any lava divers that dont want it because they want the leaderboards on a hardcore server can keep doing that and let others that want a hardcore server for playstyle alone have their server. Its funny how some people just dont want happiness for others.
 
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Careall

Well-known member
Just sharing my thoughts here, but I believe that even if a permanent permadeath server were introduced, it wouldn't quite capture the essence of what makes the Hardcore League so unique. The essence of the League is its time-bound nature—the rush and strategic planning to achieve goals within a limited timeframe. This creates a unique balance of risk and reward, defining the Hardcore experience. Without the ticking clock, we lose that sense of urgency and the leaderboard-driven competition that fuels our communal spirit.

Concerning the issue of cheating, particularly dual-boxing, where one might use a non-permadeath character to secure quest rewards while minimizing risk, it highlights a key point. External rewards, such as a Leaderboard, would encourage less-than-honest gameplay. However, if rewards are internal and the challenge is personal, then the act of cheating detracts only from the player's experience. If one plays for the thrill of the permadeath challenge, circumventing that thrill seems counterproductive. It would also not impact anyone else's gameplay - other than perhaps someone being annoying, which is fundamentally unrelated.

As for implementation, it seems feasible. A simple mechanic like the Hardcore buff, coupled with a clear end-point for characters, could keep the integrity of the challenge intact without overly complicating things. If the character is archived (Land of Lost Souls, for example), then that might be challenging to implement: Transferring a deceased toon to another server, for example, would likely need to be addressed and coded. Do you let a deceased toon bank, run a guild, or engage in other out-of-quest activities? Perhaps turn them into HC Afterparty ghosts if they die?

I'm keen to hear others' views on this. Part of the allure of DDO is exploring our limits, whether through the adrenaline-pumping Hardcore League or the self-imposed rigor of a permadeath challenge.
 

Sturmbb

Well-known member
Just sharing my thoughts here, but I believe that even if a permanent permadeath server were introduced, it wouldn't quite capture the essence of what makes the Hardcore League so unique. The essence of the League is its time-bound nature—the rush and strategic planning to achieve goals within a limited timeframe. This creates a unique balance of risk and reward, defining the Hardcore experience. Without the ticking clock, we lose that sense of urgency and the leaderboard-driven competition that fuels our communal spirit.

Concerning the issue of cheating, particularly dual-boxing, where one might use a non-permadeath character to secure quest rewards while minimizing risk, it highlights a key point. External rewards, such as a Leaderboard, would encourage less-than-honest gameplay. However, if rewards are internal and the challenge is personal, then the act of cheating detracts only from the player's experience. If one plays for the thrill of the permadeath challenge, circumventing that thrill seems counterproductive. It would also not impact anyone else's gameplay - other than perhaps someone being annoying, which is fundamentally unrelated.

As for implementation, it seems feasible. A simple mechanic like the Hardcore buff, coupled with a clear end-point for characters, could keep the integrity of the challenge intact without overly complicating things. If the character is archived (Land of Lost Souls, for example), then that might be challenging to implement: Transferring a deceased toon to another server, for example, would likely need to be addressed and coded. Do you let a deceased toon bank, run a guild, or engage in other out-of-quest activities? Perhaps turn them into HC Afterparty ghosts if they die?

I'm keen to hear others' views on this. Part of the allure of DDO is exploring our limits, whether through the adrenaline-pumping Hardcore League or the self-imposed rigor of a permadeath challenge.
I have read your post and what i think your suggesting is about having Hardcore characters on the Live Servers (you don't actually state that, but rereading your post multiple times, i believe that is what you are suggesting).

Their are a number of reasons why this will detract from the nature of a Hardcore Server

1. You are diluting the Hardcore playerbase from one server into 8 servers. So grouping will be much more difficult - which personally is the main reason i play HC.
2. Other non HC players will try and kill you. It was actually happening in Season 5 (I believe) of Hardcore. In Our Guild we had a list of players not to party with, as they were actively killing other players.
3. The Leader board is a big draw for HC players, as you are competing with other players to see how is the best HC player. is there a way they can implement a Leader board that takes into account of all 8 servers.
4. People Multi box on HC, i have seen it first hand. The only good thing is that if they get on the Leaderboard Multiboxing. The Toons they have used still had the chance of dying. On Live they will Multi box with a Non HC toon and let the HC enter the quest right at the end. So the leaderboard would be pointless.


I am pretty sure there are other reasons. If i have misinterpreted your post and you wasn't suggesting Hardcore toons on the Live server. I apologize, can you please explain what you are suggesting.
 

Toede

Well-known member
Hi, I just wanted to share my thoughts on this. Also, I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if I mention things that have already been discussed.

I used to play DDO way back when it first came out and back in those early years I ran with the permadeath guilds because I really enjoyed that playstyle. Special shoutout to The Sublime of Thelanis and Mortal Voyage of Argonnessen. Ran with both of these guilds at one time.

For me, it was never about competition. It was more about the adrenaline rush when you know your character's existence is literally on the line, and if you die, that's it. You start over and you lose everything. No overpowered gear, past lives, or any of that nonsense. Just your wits and your skill in using your character effectively.

It's absolutely true that this is self enforceable, and to those that don't care about competition this works fine. But I've also played games that offer built in rules for permadeath, and it really is a huge difference when the game backs up and reinforces the playstyle. So I would absolutely love a server in DDO that did this, but I also have no illusions about the popularity of such a server.

People who play this way with no incentive aren't common. The truth is, most people just can't bear the thought of losing what they have worked for, which is a totally normal. And I will admit that I get tired of the playstyle after a while and need to do something different for a bit because I like to play higher level content too, and doing the same stuff all the time can make any game stale. It takes a certain mindset to enjoy this kind of gameplay long term.

I haven't played on HC since I only just came back to the game, and I'm a little sad I won't get a chance to try it in 2024, but I am sure the reason it is so popular has nothing to do with the playstyle of PD and more to do with the competition and rewards. If HC specifically were made permanent, the sense of urgency people have in participating would likely evaporate and the true popularity of PD would start rearing its head.

Perhaps the solution to that would be to keep seasons going on the permanent server but then you have some issues that come to my mind. What about things that require permanency like guilds? What if a character survived the season and the player wants to continue playing it until it too dies? Would that even be possible and should that character's deeds count toward the new season? And what effect, if any, would this have on the normal populations of the non-PD servers? I'm sure this could all be worked out, of course, but considerations do exist that would make it a bit harder than just flipping a switch on a new server.

TLDR: I would love a permadeath ruleset server but I also wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near as popular as hardcore, even if they also brought the HC mechanics into the server on a permanent basis as well.
 

The Narc

Well-known member
Hi, I just wanted to share my thoughts on this. Also, I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if I mention things that have already been discussed.

I used to play DDO way back when it first came out and back in those early years I ran with the permadeath guilds because I really enjoyed that playstyle. Special shoutout to The Sublime of Thelanis and Mortal Voyage of Argonnessen. Ran with both of these guilds at one time.

For me, it was never about competition. It was more about the adrenaline rush when you know your character's existence is literally on the line, and if you die, that's it. You start over and you lose everything. No overpowered gear, past lives, or any of that nonsense. Just your wits and your skill in using your character effectively.

It's absolutely true that this is self enforceable, and to those that don't care about competition this works fine. But I've also played games that offer built in rules for permadeath, and it really is a huge difference when the game backs up and reinforces the playstyle. So I would absolutely love a server in DDO that did this, but I also have no illusions about the popularity of such a server.

People who play this way with no incentive aren't common. The truth is, most people just can't bear the thought of losing what they have worked for, which is a totally normal. And I will admit that I get tired of the playstyle after a while and need to do something different for a bit because I like to play higher level content too, and doing the same stuff all the time can make any game stale. It takes a certain mindset to enjoy this kind of gameplay long term.

I haven't played on HC since I only just came back to the game, and I'm a little sad I won't get a chance to try it in 2024, but I am sure the reason it is so popular has nothing to do with the playstyle of PD and more to do with the competition and rewards. If HC specifically were made permanent, the sense of urgency people have in participating would likely evaporate and the true popularity of PD would start rearing its head.

Perhaps the solution to that would be to keep seasons going on the permanent server but then you have some issues that come to my mind. What about things that require permanency like guilds? What if a character survived the season and the player wants to continue playing it until it too dies? Would that even be possible and should that character's deeds count toward the new season? And what effect, if any, would this have on the normal populations of the non-PD servers? I'm sure this could all be worked out, of course, but considerations do exist that would make it a bit harder than just flipping a switch on a new server.

TLDR: I would love a permadeath ruleset server but I also wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near as popular as hardcore, even if they also brought the HC mechanics into the server on a permanent basis as well.
Hey,

I played in sublime to, the original permadeath guild before the great divide, and currently play in mortal voyage, you should try it out again, look me up on argo there, my name will have narc in it.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
As I said in other thread, Hardcore is popular for a variety of reasons, not only one

I only play it because I want the cosmetics, not because I like the playstyle or playing a weak character. I know many people who think like me.

There are people who like the greater grouping opportunities on hc. The population has decreased greatly on normal servers. Many have told me, they play hc for the grouping, not because they are enthusiastic about the style. This is the second thing I like of hc, but as the season progresses, these grouping opportunities decrease, as the population disperses into levels. This would occur, and more pronounced, in a permanent HC, since the longer a season lasts, the more the population disperses.

Others like the risk.

Others like that everyone starts with the same power level.

I am very afraid that those who imagine that a permanent HC server would be super popular do not realize that not everyone who plays on HC does so for the same reason, and it would not have the same population that temporary HCs have now.

Nor do they realize that a permanent server would end up taking on many of the drawbacks of live servers, such as the dispersion of players or the accumulation of PL (although this less than in live, because inevitably toons would end up dying, even if only from lag or bad luck).

I also see that in the long run there would be fatigue in a part of the population that will play it, either due to frustration of having lost a character in which you have invested a lot of time, or due to mental stress (there are people who need a break after feeling tense in the HC). Undoubtedly the server would still have hardcore fans (heh, hardcore), but it wouldn't be as popular as the regular seasons we have now are.
 

Toede

Well-known member
Hey,

I played in sublime to, the original permadeath guild before the great divide, and currently play in mortal voyage, you should try it out again, look me up on argo there, my name will have narc in it.

Hi, Narc. I just might do that, thanks. I tend to play games mostly solo nowadays out of necessity but I'm sure I can find some time to run with others now and then.
 
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The Narc

Well-known member
As I said in other thread, Hardcore is popular for a variety of reasons, not only one

I only play it because I want the cosmetics, not because I like the playstyle or playing a weak character. I know many people who think like me.

There are people who like the greater grouping opportunities on hc. The population has decreased greatly on normal servers. Many have told me, they play hc for the grouping, not because they are enthusiastic about the style. This is the second thing I like of hc, but as the season progresses, these grouping opportunities decrease, as the population disperses into levels. This would occur, and more pronounced, in a permanent HC, since the longer a season lasts, the more the population disperses.

Others like the risk.

Others like that everyone starts with the same power level.

I am very afraid that those who imagine that a permanent HC server would be super popular do not realize that not everyone who plays on HC does so for the same reason, and it would not have the same population that temporary HCs have now.

Nor do they realize that a permanent server would end up taking on many of the drawbacks of live servers, such as the dispersion of players or the accumulation of PL (although this less than in live, because inevitably toons would end up dying, even if only from lag or bad luck).

I also see that in the long run there would be fatigue in a part of the population that will play it, either due to frustration of having lost a character in which you have invested a lot of time, or due to mental stress (there are people who need a break after feeling tense in the HC). Undoubtedly the server would still have hardcore fans (heh, hardcore), but it wouldn't be as popular as the regular seasons we have now are.
Respectfully I dont think assumptions could be made for either side, although you have alot of statements in this post none of them are factual and are nothing but your predictions or your own self analysis. As tonwhichninhave posted the same, both neither or one of us could be wrong.

To really know the value in a permanent hardcore server we need nothing more thatn to start one up with a test period of lets aay 6 months and that would give all the answers that are needed, and as much as get all the cosmetics and put myself i the leaderboards season after season, i would much rather no cosmetics and no leaderboard for a oermanent hardcore server(save these for official hardcore seasons).

My prediction is you would get a strong insurgence of players that want the environment and want the grouping of like minded individuals, but again only a prediction.
 

Careall

Well-known member
I have read your post and what i think your suggesting is about having Hardcore characters on the Live Servers (you don't actually state that, but rereading your post multiple times, i believe that is what you are suggesting).

Their are a number of reasons why this will detract from the nature of a Hardcore Server

1. You are diluting the Hardcore playerbase from one server into 8 servers. So grouping will be much more difficult - which personally is the main reason i play HC.
2. Other non HC players will try and kill you. It was actually happening in Season 5 (I believe) of Hardcore. In Our Guild we had a list of players not to party with, as they were actively killing other players.
3. The Leader board is a big draw for HC players, as you are competing with other players to see how is the best HC player. is there a way they can implement a Leader board that takes into account of all 8 servers.
4. People Multi box on HC, i have seen it first hand. The only good thing is that if they get on the Leaderboard Multiboxing. The Toons they have used still had the chance of dying. On Live they will Multi box with a Non HC toon and let the HC enter the quest right at the end. So the leaderboard would be pointless.


I am pretty sure there are other reasons. If i have misinterpreted your post and you wasn't suggesting Hardcore toons on the Live server. I apologize, can you please explain what you are suggesting.

I was responding to this entire thread while trying to address the points objectively - without my personal opinion. My opinion is that HC League is generally good the way it is, and the other servers are likewise good the way they are. No such permadeath or permanent HC server is needed. My opinion aside, I addressed the points that I felt were most important or least acknowledged (either supported or objected to). For example, someone quipped that it would be challenging to add a permadeath option to the live servers. While such an endeavor would take some thought to ensure game balance, it wouldn't be beyond the difficulty it took to create the HC League in the first place. If SSG wanted to do it, the difficulty wouldn't be a reason to scrap the idea.

  1. Yes. A permanent HC server would dilute the already slim server populations.
  2. Perhaps. If it was a character creation option, there's no need to share that information with everyone. If we're talking PD server, then you run it like HC: You know what you're getting into.
  3. When someone says, "It can't be done," some damn fool goes ahead and does it. So, I won't say, "It can't be done." The dilution is likely a significant hurdle with this idea too. Another subtly attractive part of the leaderboards is that the season's "winners" are memorialized. I'm not sure ongoing leaderboards will carry the same draw or how/why to create cutoffs that don't feel arbitrary or manufactured.
  4. Yep. Someone suggested choosing to create new toons with the permadeath option. Your point was one of the opposing reasons, which has merit if there are external rewards, like free cosmetics or leaderboards. If the choice to play permadeath is only a personal one with no other gain than the heart-pumping thrill that permadeath brings, then such concerns disappear: Who cares if someone is cheating themselves out of that thrill?
 
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