U62 Preview 2 Active Attacks Rebalance

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Hammatimes

Well-known member
I have mixed opinions on this... I like active game play, but trying to get adrenaline chained properly during raid lag with DDO's no input queue system is not fun either...
Trust me... at least half of what I say during raids is just complaining about Adren not going off. I'll still be an idealist when it comes to future gameplay design and hope they can improve the issues rather than dumb the game down to try and hide them.

I also really liked how they caused it to change the effects of primal scream and Great Leveler, they should do more of that with abilities. Like Supreme Cleave causing it to be AOE with no +W bonuses, or any tactics ability auto succeeds including strikethroughs.
 

Matsu

Active member
I am trying to wrap my brain around this and for some reason it just doesn't compute for me.

Currently my level 32 Melee build, using the Legendary tail of the Scorpion is 6.5(2d4+4)+153, with a 201 Melee Power.
Lamannia it is 6.3(2d4+4)+153 again with a 201 Melee Power.
Would someone demonstrate the math for me. I cannot figure out how this is a slight benefit to me.
 

wdhvenrick

Well-known member
New changes are in blue!

Essentially, we are going to change all attacks that have a +W component as part of their attack to use a percentage increase in their damage, following this scale:

W ScalarPercentage Boost
+1W+10%
+2W+20%
+3W+30%
+4W+40%
+5W+50%
......
+10W+100%
Pretty linear!

This means that if you had, for example, an attack that had +3W, that attack will now instead deal +30% damage.

The goal here is to make active attacks more worthwhile across the entire level bands. The big benefit of percentage boosts is that an active attack dealing 50% more damage at level 10 is the same level of efficacy as one dealing +50% at level 30, whereas +5W means a LOT more at level 10 as it does at level 30. This standardization will make attacks a lot easier to balance as they'll be worth the same percentage bonus dps no matter what level you are, what dice your weapon has, what bonus damage you have, and what W score your weapon is.

This overhaul also allowed us to rebalance a variety of active attacks to spruce them up a bit. Therefore:

  • Attacks that increased their W scale or other bonuses in a nonlinear or otherwise unusual fashion have been adjusted to be linear. This includes attacks that started at 1W and never increased beyond that across their ranks.
    • Example: Wracking Strike/Shot in the Mechanic tree now deals +10/20/30% damage instead of the +10/10/10% it would have been
  • Attacks that used to have a lesser scale for their ranged versions have been adjusted to match their melee counterparts.
    • Example: Caustic Shot in Battle Engineer now deals +10/20/30% damage, matching its melee version, instead of +5/10/15% had it matched its original W scalar
  • Attacks that used to secretly scale with W but never told you they did so have been tracked down and their tooltips have been adjusted
    • Example: Supreme Cleave was secretly dealing +0/1/2W, and now deals +10/20/30% damage
  • Attacks that used to deal in .5W scales have been rounded to deal with whole percentages. We're going to try to keep things on multiples of 10% if at all possible.
    • Example: The Fists of Light feat used to deal +.5W damage, it now deals +10% damage (rounding up what would have been 5% to 10%)
  • Attacks that hit multiple times have had their bonus damage set lower to compensate for their multi-hit status.
    • This pretty much only affects two things: Drifting Lotus and the set of Shadar-Kai's Spiked Chain attacks. Each of these are set to 10% bonus damage.
  • Attacks that had a high W scale for their level and are AOEs have been adjusted to appropriate values
    • Example: Cleave, Great Cleave, and their associated Exalted versions in Knight of the Chalice are now 10% damage for regular and 20% for the great cleave versions.
Finally, here's a FAQ:

  • Question: What about things like Vorpal on weapons?
    • Answer: That will continue to boost the base weapon dice of your weapon. Effects that adjust W will remain as-is.
  • Question: What about things like Combat Archery?
    • Answer: That is another thing that boosts the base W of your weapons, and is therefore unchanged.
  • Question: What about things that boost overall damage, like Relentless Fury?
    • Answer: That will continue to boost overall damage as before. The only thing that is changing here is the part of an active attack that boosts the effective W score of your weapon for that attack. Everything else is not changing.
  • Question: Does this boost sneak attack damage?
    • Answer: No, this only affects the attack itself, and does not adjust additional on-hit effects or Sneak Attack (which were not boosted by W changes before)
  • Question: Does the new boost multiply with melee or ranged power?
    • Answer: Melee and Ranged Power will continue to work as they did before, multiplying your melee or ranged damage respectively.
Known Issues:

  • Feats are currently not displaying their bonus damage percentage increase!

I see nothing here mentioning the nerf to boulders might. What happened to its +W, or now what would be a percent increase to damage. It just has crit multi now.

My destiny attack min level 20, boulders might is now weaker than slaughter, an ability that unlocks at level 3. I think that might be a problem.

EDIT: I've noticed also that boulders might is nerfed, but fast and furious is buffed to gain another critical multiplier at its max tier. What in the world
 
Last edited:

Nickodeamous

Well-known member
New changes are in blue!

  • Example: The Fists of Light feat used to deal +.5W damage, it now deals +10% damage (rounding up what would have been 5% to 10%)
  • Attacks that hit multiple times have had their bonus damage set lower to compensate for their multi-hit status.
    • This pretty much only affects two things: Drifting Lotus and the set of Shadar-Kai's Spiked Chain attacks. Each of these are set to 10% bonus damage.
  • Attacks that had a high W scale for their level and are AOEs have been adjusted to appropriate values
    • Example: Cleave, Great Cleave, and their associated Exalted versions in Knight of the Chalice are now 10% damage for regular and 20% for the great cleave versions.
why is drifting lotus being gutted? If you do this, you really need to fix it so handwrap monks get the extra hit that every other class gets. I get not leaving it at 50%, but you are nerfing it 10%! lets say original base damage was 165. now it ends up at 146, which is 11.6% lower DPS.

This needs to have a 25% MINIMUM buff to equal what it was before. Please look and fix :) Pretty please!!

levlevDamageAverageAvg. +100Bufftotalnotes
293010.0(1d6+3)
65.00​
165.00​
0%​
165.00​
original
29305.0(1d6+3)
32.50​
132.50​
50%​
198.75​
Preview 1
29305.0(1d6+3)
32.50​
132.50​
10%​
145.75​
Preview 2
29305.0(1d6+3)
32.50​
132.50​
25%​
165.63​
where it should be to be equal
 

Gavaleus

Member
Overall I like the direction of these changes; making active attacks more useful across the board and across level ranges. There are a bunch of attacks sprinkled throughout enhancement trees that are neat, but are so weak they're essentially just another basic attack. It'll be nice that they'll actually stand out a bit now.

I still think there could be some more balance tweaking on individual attacks, though.

Bumping down Drifting Lotus and the Shadar-kai chain attacks is reasonable, since they are AoE, hit multiple times, and have critical threat and multiplier bonuses. But I don't think it's necessary to lower the other cleaves so much. They don't hit multiple times and don't have any critical modifiers, which greatly limits their damage in comparison. And there are quite a few other AoE active attacks that have 5 or more [W] bonuses anyway (Sweeping Strikes, Staff Lunge, Wide Sweep, Shield Rush, Blighted Charge, and maybe some others). Rather than bringing all of these down to 10%-20%, I would suggest keeping them at least at something like 20%-40%. Keep in mind that THF can use single target attacks with high [W] bonuses with strikethrough, making those single target attacks better cleaves than the actual cleaves. So it'd be nice if cleaves could at least keep up.

A couple of attacks I do think might end up a little too strong are ones with high [W] bonuses, high critical multiplier bonuses, and high critical threat range bonuses. For example:
  • Fast and Furious (+3[W], +2 critical multiplier) (paired with Adrenaline)
  • Boulder's Might (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier) (paired with Adrenaline)
  • Shoot Later (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier, +2 critical threat) (paired with Hunt's End)
  • Legendary Rally (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier, automatic critical) (Additionally, it seems to produce multiple copies like Drifting Lotus or Whirlwind Attack. So it further doubles or triples its damage.)
  • Eldritch Tempest (cleave for +5[W], +3 critical multiplier, +10 critical threat range) (Wiki even lists that these values are doubled, but not sure if that's the case or if it's been fixed)
Getting an automatic critical plus extra critical multipliers is already a large multiplicative bonus, making them some of the strongest active attacks in the game. So giving them another multiplicative 30% or 50% on top of that might be a little excessive. They'll benefit way more from these changes than the more plain +3[W] attacks elsewhere throughout the game.

Technically you can even pair Adrenaline/Hunt's End with the Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes (+5[W], +3 critical threat and multiplier). You just wait out the cooldown, then use the Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes while the buffs for Adrenaline/Hunt's End are still active. Impractical, of course, but still possible.

What I would love to see is for Adrenaline/Hunt's End to simply be made into active attacks and given +2 critical multipliers in addition to their usual effects.
  • You always want to pair them with +2 critical multiplier attacks anyway (or even +5[W], +1 critical multiplier attacks with these changes).
  • It removes the annoyance of lag messing up your combo. (Adrenaline/Hunt's end goes off, but your active attack doesn't, wasting the Adrenaline/Hunt's End on a normal attack. Or Adrenaline/Hunt's End doesn't go off, but your active attack does, wasting your active attack.)
  • It prevents the cheesy combo of Adrenaline/Hunt's End + Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes.
  • Removes the need for every active attack to have to be balanced around its interaction with Adrenaline/Hunt's End. (Though Legendary Rally and Eldritch Tempest might still bit a tad strong with their innate critical threat bonuses.)
 

wdhvenrick

Well-known member
Overall I like the direction of these changes; making active attacks more useful across the board and across level ranges. There are a bunch of attacks sprinkled throughout enhancement trees that are neat, but are so weak they're essentially just another basic attack. It'll be nice that they'll actually stand out a bit now.

I still think there could be some more balance tweaking on individual attacks, though.

Bumping down Drifting Lotus and the Shadar-kai chain attacks is reasonable, since they are AoE, hit multiple times, and have critical threat and multiplier bonuses. But I don't think it's necessary to lower the other cleaves so much. They don't hit multiple times and don't have any critical modifiers, which greatly limits their damage in comparison. And there are quite a few other AoE active attacks that have 5 or more [W] bonuses anyway (Sweeping Strikes, Staff Lunge, Wide Sweep, Shield Rush, Blighted Charge, and maybe some others). Rather than bringing all of these down to 10%-20%, I would suggest keeping them at least at something like 20%-40%. Keep in mind that THF can use single target attacks with high [W] bonuses with strikethrough, making those single target attacks better cleaves than the actual cleaves. So it'd be nice if cleaves could at least keep up.

A couple of attacks I do think might end up a little too strong are ones with high [W] bonuses, high critical multiplier bonuses, and high critical threat range bonuses. For example:
  • Fast and Furious (+3[W], +2 critical multiplier) (paired with Adrenaline)
  • Boulder's Might (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier) (paired with Adrenaline)
  • Shoot Later (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier, +2 critical threat) (paired with Hunt's End)
  • Legendary Rally (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier, automatic critical) (Additionally, it seems to produce multiple copies like Drifting Lotus or Whirlwind Attack. So it further doubles or triples its damage.)
  • Eldritch Tempest (cleave for +5[W], +3 critical multiplier, +10 critical threat range) (Wiki even lists that these values are doubled, but not sure if that's the case or if it's been fixed)
Getting an automatic critical plus extra critical multipliers is already a large multiplicative bonus, making them some of the strongest active attacks in the game. So giving them another multiplicative 30% or 50% on top of that might be a little excessive. They'll benefit way more from these changes than the more plain +3[W] attacks elsewhere throughout the game.

Technically you can even pair Adrenaline/Hunt's End with the Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes (+5[W], +3 critical threat and multiplier). You just wait out the cooldown, then use the Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes while the buffs for Adrenaline/Hunt's End are still active. Impractical, of course, but still possible.

What I would love to see is for Adrenaline/Hunt's End to simply be made into active attacks and given +2 critical multipliers in addition to their usual effects.
  • You always want to pair them with +2 critical multiplier attacks anyway (or even +5[W], +1 critical multiplier attacks with these changes).
  • It removes the annoyance of lag messing up your combo. (Adrenaline/Hunt's end goes off, but your active attack doesn't, wasting the Adrenaline/Hunt's End on a normal attack. Or Adrenaline/Hunt's End doesn't go off, but your active attack does, wasting your active attack.)
  • It prevents the cheesy combo of Adrenaline/Hunt's End + Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes.
  • Removes the need for every active attack to have to be balanced around its interaction with Adrenaline/Hunt's End. (Though Legendary Rally and Eldritch Tempest might still bit a tad strong with their innate critical threat bonuses.)
AS someone who loves adrenaline, barbarians and THF melees, I prefer my adrenaline being seperate and choosing which attack to put it on. This would ruin so much joy by making it an active attack.
 

Boondocks Mike

Well-known member
It's interesting to see this, I think there is a LOT missing from the current considerations.

Are you going to ignore the existence of attacks like Deadly Strike and A Good Death? Perhaps simply adding a +[W] equivalent scaling to them would be the easiest fix to that particular issue.

I also strongly suggest evaluating the CDs of all active attacks. 15-20+ seconds is completely unreasonable and unfun for the majority of effects applied by special attacks, especially considering the existence and current balance of Adrenaline and Hunt's End.

Was excited to see this post, and it's good to see that this is being acknowledged as an issue which exists at all, but I think a lot more needs to be done here.
 

Rage

Well-known member
I see nothing here mentioning the nerf to boulders might. What happened to its +W, or now what would be a percent increase to damage. It just has crit multi now.

My destiny attack min level 20, boulders might is now weaker than slaughter, an ability that unlocks at level 3. I think that might be a problem.

EDIT: I've noticed also that boulders might is nerfed, but fast and furious is buffed to gain another critical multiplier at its max tier. What in the world

F&F if it stays in it's current Lam incarnation is a reaper destroyer.

not a popular opinion because boulder's might has been such a mainstay staple over the years but I actually welcome the meta change.

overall, I expected some nerfs and we got some sizeable ones. it is what it is. i'm cool with it from an overall balance perspective
 

Gavaleus

Member
AS someone who loves adrenaline, barbarians and THF melees, I prefer my adrenaline being seperate and choosing which attack to put it on. This would ruin so much joy by making it an active attack.
I find that interesting. I love my THF barb, but Adrenaline just feels clunky to me. Why press two buttons to do one thing when one works? Not to mention lag messing things up.

I think the ability to choose what attack to apply it to has potential depth to it, but the choices are [+2 crit multi attack], Primal Scream (whose Adrenaline interaction doesn't work), and The Great Leveler (increases the hitbox, which is nice, but rarely needed). And Hunt's End is even less compelling. Though it is true that with these changes there will be more active attacks to consider like some of the +5[W], +1 crit multi attacks or the +10[W] attacks, which can impact build choices. That's definitely a plus.
 

Rage

Well-known member
I find that interesting. I love my THF barb, but Adrenaline just feels clunky to me. Why press two buttons to do one thing when one works? Not to mention lag messing things up.

I think the ability to choose what attack to apply it to has potential depth to it, but the choices are [+2 crit multi attack], Primal Scream (whose Adrenaline interaction doesn't work), and The Great Leveler (increases the hitbox, which is nice, but rarely needed). And Hunt's End is even less compelling. Though it is true that with these changes there will be more active attacks to consider like some of the +5[W], +1 crit multi attacks or the +10[W] attacks, which can impact build choices. That's definitely a plus.
cause you can choose to fire it off when you absolutely need it. I often hit adren then sometimes I wait depending on the shifting circumstances of the fight then hold on to it as it ticks and trigger it on something with more priority. there's a tactical element to it that adds depth to the game.

but I do agree adren + boulders actually hitting is currently a 50/50 due to lag and the nature of playing an mmo.
 

Triaxx2

Active member
Wait... people spend points on Great Leveler?

I'm not sure nerfing the multi-hit abilities is actually that useful. Most things just melt when hit even with basic attacks so 10% or 50% overkill is kind of meaningless.
 

Rage

Well-known member
Wait... people spend points on Great Leveler?

I'm not sure nerfing the multi-hit abilities is actually that useful. Most things just melt when hit even with basic attacks so 10% or 50% overkill is kind of meaningless.
noone spends points on GL even after the so called buff. :ROFLMAO:
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
Wait... people spend points on Great Leveler?

I'm not sure nerfing the multi-hit abilities is actually that useful. Most things just melt when hit even with basic attacks so 10% or 50% overkill is kind of meaningless.
I did try great leveler on a blightwolf build and it honestly felt pretty good for shoring up my aoe/cc.

Also on Fast and Furious it's so much better than people give it credit for, raging twf builds especially get great use out of it as it hits with both hands.
 

droid327

Well-known member
why is drifting lotus being gutted? If you do this, you really need to fix it so handwrap monks get the extra hit that every other class gets. I get not leaving it at 50%, but you are nerfing it 10%! lets say original base damage was 165. now it ends up at 146, which is 11.6% lower DPS.

This needs to have a 25% MINIMUM buff to equal what it was before. Please look and fix :) Pretty please!!

SSG never does the math before changes. They just pick a number that "feels" vaguely right...

Simply change Lotus to 3W=30% like most other three-tier special attacks, including doublehit cleaves like Rapid Slash and En Pointe. Its doublehit mechanic doesnt really affect the rationale behind going from +W to +% Damage anyway...whether an attack does one packet or damage or two, its still just 30% more.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
why is drifting lotus being gutted? If you do this, you really need to fix it so handwrap monks get the extra hit that every other class gets. I get not leaving it at 50%, but you are nerfing it 10%! lets say original base damage was 165. now it ends up at 146, which is 11.6% lower DPS.

This needs to have a 25% MINIMUM buff to equal what it was before. Please look and fix :) Pretty please!!

levlevDamageAverageAvg. +100Bufftotalnotes
293010.0(1d6+3)
65.00​
165.00​
0%​
165.00​
original
29305.0(1d6+3)
32.50​
132.50​
50%​
198.75​
Preview 1
29305.0(1d6+3)
32.50​
132.50​
10%​
145.75​
Preview 2
29305.0(1d6+3)
32.50​
132.50​
25%​
165.63​
where it should be to be equal
10% may have been a bit too much (I suggested 5/10/15 in the original thread), but top tier builds will have closer to +200 damage mod rather than +100, which breaks even around 14%, not 25%.

I can see this one going either way. On the one hand, drifting lotus is already too strong and probably should be nerfed. On the other hand, adrenaline is generally stronger and it's getting buffed so... :unsure:

Either way handwraps definitely need to be fixed to triple hit properly.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Attacks that hit multiple times have had their bonus damage set lower to compensate for their multi-hit status.
  • This pretty much only affects two things: Drifting Lotus and the set of Shadar-Kai's Spiked Chain attacks. Each of these are set to 10% bonus damage.

What about VKF rapid slash?
 
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