U62 Preview 2 Active Attacks Rebalance

[Rage]

I did try great leveler on a blightwolf build and it honestly felt pretty good for shoring up my aoe/cc.

Also on Fast and Furious it's so much better than people give it credit for, raging twf builds especially get great use out of it as it hits with both hands.

i heard fast and furious has some glitching issues though and doesn't actually seem to hit anything half the time when triggered. also can you use this when you're right next to your target? or do you need some distance?

 

[Lotoc]

i heard fast and furious has some glitching issues though and doesn't actually seem to hit anything half the time when triggered. also can you use this when you're right next to your target? or do you need some distance?

It works best point blank honestly. much shorter animation that doesn't lock out your attacks (in fact you can do it back to back)

 

[The Blonde]

Overall I like the direction of these changes; making active attacks more useful across the board and across level ranges. There are a bunch of attacks sprinkled throughout enhancement trees that are neat, but are so weak they're essentially just another basic attack. It'll be nice that they'll actually stand out a bit now.

I still think there could be some more balance tweaking on individual attacks, though.

Bumping down Drifting Lotus and the Shadar-kai chain attacks is reasonable, since they are AoE, hit multiple times, and have critical threat and multiplier bonuses. But I don't think it's necessary to lower the other cleaves so much. They don't hit multiple times and don't have any critical modifiers, which greatly limits their damage in comparison. And there are quite a few other AoE active attacks that have 5 or more [W] bonuses anyway (Sweeping Strikes, Staff Lunge, Wide Sweep, Shield Rush, Blighted Charge, and maybe some others). Rather than bringing all of these down to 10%-20%, I would suggest keeping them at least at something like 20%-40%. Keep in mind that THF can use single target attacks with high [W] bonuses with strikethrough, making those single target attacks better cleaves than the actual cleaves. So it'd be nice if cleaves could at least keep up.

A couple of attacks I do think might end up a little too strong are ones with high [W] bonuses, high critical multiplier bonuses, and high critical threat range bonuses. For example:

• Fast and Furious (+3[W], +2 critical multiplier) (paired with Adrenaline)
• Boulder's Might (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier) (paired with Adrenaline)
• Shoot Later (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier, +2 critical threat) (paired with Hunt's End)
• Legendary Rally (+5[W], +2 critical multiplier, automatic critical) (Additionally, it seems to produce multiple copies like Drifting Lotus or Whirlwind Attack. So it further doubles or triples its damage.)
• Eldritch Tempest (cleave for +5[W], +3 critical multiplier, +10 critical threat range) (Wiki even lists that these values are doubled, but not sure if that's the case or if it's been fixed)

Getting an automatic critical plus extra critical multipliers is already a large multiplicative bonus, making them some of the strongest active attacks in the game. So giving them another multiplicative 30% or 50% on top of that might be a little excessive. They'll benefit way more from these changes than the more plain +3[W] attacks elsewhere throughout the game.

Technically you can even pair Adrenaline/Hunt's End with the Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes (+5[W], +3 critical threat and multiplier). You just wait out the cooldown, then use the Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes while the buffs for Adrenaline/Hunt's End are still active. Impractical, of course, but still possible.

What I would love to see is for Adrenaline/Hunt's End to simply be made into active attacks and given +2 critical multipliers in addition to their usual effects.

• You always want to pair them with +2 critical multiplier attacks anyway (or even +5[W], +1 critical multiplier attacks with these changes).
• It removes the annoyance of lag messing up your combo. (Adrenaline/Hunt's end goes off, but your active attack doesn't, wasting the Adrenaline/Hunt's End on a normal attack. Or Adrenaline/Hunt's End doesn't go off, but your active attack does, wasting your active attack.)
• It prevents the cheesy combo of Adrenaline/Hunt's End + Shadowdancer/Grandmaster of Flowers Epic Strikes.
• Removes the need for every active attack to have to be balanced around its interaction with Adrenaline/Hunt's End. (Though Legendary Rally and Eldritch Tempest might still bit a tad strong with their innate critical threat bonuses.)

I want to marry this post.
YES.
So much YES.

 

[Tilomere]

I think the game would be better balanced if you used prior notes and just updated the melee/ranged reaper damage penalty to match casters.

 

[Rage]

I think the game would be better balanced if you used prior notes and just updated the melee/ranged reaper damage penalty to match casters.

somewhat agree here. doing some quick back of the napkin math and it's all looking less and less like an active attack advantage from current live servers.

if the trend holds in preview 3 from preview 1 to 2 then it may even become a nerf.

 

[Ying]

I'm not sure nerfing the multi-hit abilities is actually that useful. Most things just melt when hit even with basic attacks so 10% or 50% overkill is kind of meaningless.

Play on a harder difficulty where mobs actually take more than one hit to die.

 

[Scrag]

All these changes look like fuel for a fire to eventually nerf hunts end and adrenaline. Just like how inquis was so good that IPS had to be nerfed.

I have done hunts end repeater, and adrenaline bardbarian.

In both builds, reliability for both boosts was sketch at best. And I always had to pause after triggering either buff _to make sure the next attack fired it_.

And then, some times no matter what I did, it just wouldn't. I would get standard damage out of the follow-on attack.

I would put reliability of both buffs at around 90~ percent. When the buffs work, its huge pretty numbers. But fizzles? Are fizzles related to lag? The definitely do not appear to be related to misses.

Yeah, no thanks, I will be following the active attack updates closely to see if we can get more reliable and consistent, less quirky buffs. I will miss the big numbers, but 3 smaller attacks which in aggregate make more damage is more appealing if they are reasonably fast to execute.

 

[Dragxon]

AS someone who loves adrenaline, barbarians and THF melees, I prefer my adrenaline being seperate and choosing which attack to put it on. This would ruin so much joy by making it an active attack.

Adrenaline is already a problematic ability in that it can be strongest dps epic strike if you can line up +2 crit multi attacks with it every usage. With these proposed changes Adrenaline gets even stronger when you can line up the attacks.

Adrenaline is just too strong of an enabler. Every future ability or future change has to be made with the question of "is this too strong when paired with Adrenaline?" At some point they should just cut their losses and make it an active attack. (All of this also applies to Hunts End as well.)

 

[Dragxon]

The Drifting Lotus Nerf feels excessive. 30% would probably be a much better number for it and changing it to work better with handwraps would also be a plus.

As it is Drifting Lotus is worse than Adrenaline and with these changes will be even further behind.

Also before anyone points out Drifting Lotus is AOE versus Adrenaline is single target all I have to say is just go play Adrenaline with chains.

 

[nenetteblackmoor]

Cleave, Great Cleave = accessible power for everyone
Avenging Cleave = power bestowed by the gods

"I don't want you to think of it the same way. Avenging Cleave is the highest power obtainable through faith in the gods. I don't want you to equate it with a power accessible to everyone, so don't think of it the same way!

It's a divine technique obtained by forsaking immense power and physical strength (BBN) as well as versatile feat (FTR) to have faith in the gods.

Paladin's power should ideally have a tremendous impact on certain enemies, but being inferior to Barbarian in all aspects is unacceptable. Furthermore, the nerf is a level of doubt about the existence of the gods.

 

[Lotoc]

While drifting lotus was clearly the big winner of the changes at first it clearly wasn't enough to dethrone adrenaline.
Adrenaline and hunt's end are just simply massive balance issues (just like dragon breath tbh), please consider that drifting lotus has a 15 second cooldown, is restricted to ki weapons and does not triple hit with the *most popular* ki weapon handwraps.
It also doesn't do the double force damage to certain creatures as the description claims (neither does orchid blossom).
Adrenaline being an 8 second cooldown 225% increased damage autocrit you can apply to a specific active attack that won't be consumed on a miss is a massively stronger ability to the point people were excited for the chance to consider (still inferior) alternatives and taking that away with preemptive nerfs sucks.

Seriously SSG when it comes time to nerf ANY epic strike please just ask yourself the question "Is this stronger than Adrenaline/Hunt's End/Dragon's Breath" and if the answer is no, just don't.

 

[wdhvenrick]

I have done hunts end repeater, and adrenaline bardbarian.

In both builds, reliability for both boosts was sketch at best. And I always had to pause after triggering either buff _to make sure the next attack fired it_.

And then, some times no matter what I did, it just wouldn't. I would get standard damage out of the follow-on attack.

I would put reliability of both buffs at around 90~ percent. When the buffs work, its huge pretty numbers. But fizzles? Are fizzles related to lag? The definitely do not appear to be related to misses.

Yeah, no thanks, I will be following the active attack updates closely to see if we can get more reliable and consistent, less quirky buffs. I will miss the big numbers, but 3 smaller attacks which in aggregate make more damage is more appealing if they are reasonably fast to execute.

You have done barbarians. I have consistently played barbarians since MOTU released. I simply don't trust the developers to "fix" or balance fury of the wild. What would the epic moment do without the current adrenaline? Would my DPS be comparable to the live server where it isn't "OP" yet. The devs would butcher fury of the wild while balancing it, and it would take 2 years to get reworked just to have the DPS barely back to what I currently have on the live server right now.

 

[Torc]

Nerfing boulder's might and not fast and furious doesn't make much sense to me, but I can see why 50% would be too much.

Tooltips look great though, and that seems to be a very nice buff to shadowstrike

Ah! Boulder's Might was not nerfed, it's bugged. It got missed in the pass and is still using Ws which isn't showing up in the tool tip. It will have a 50% bonus.

 

[Torc]

You are going to have to fix drifting lotus for handwraps then

Yes we are looking at that now...

 

[Lotoc]

Yes we are looking at that now...

While you're looking at drifting lotus please reconsider the damage reduction because yknow it has almost twice the cooldown of adrenaline, the force damage doesn't double as per the description on "tainted creatures", it's restricted to centered combat...

and I really just don't want the end result of these changes being an even bigger push towards adrenaline being the only melee epic strike worth really using.

 

[Spook]

Yes we are looking at that now...

While you are at it can you look at Whirlwind for Razorclaw shifter handwraps?

 

[Mystra]

Ah! Boulder's Might was not nerfed, it's bugged. It got missed in the pass and is still using Ws which isn't showing up in the tool tip. It will have a 50% bonus.

I will SUB another inventory account for a FULL YEAR after reading this.Thank you, Torc.

P.S. Please do not touch adrenaline. It is pretty much why I play most melee classes and the centerpiece ability on like 90% of the martial builds out there. Thank you.

P.P.S Thank you Torc for doing all this. And not just the melee combat stuff but the badly needed balance passes. It's very popular and getting me excited to play again. Thank you!

 

[Alternative]

P.S. Please do not touch adrenaline. It is pretty much why I play most melee classes and the centerpiece ability on like 90% of the martial builds out there

Sounds exactly like a reason to touch it.

 

[The Blonde]

At the very least, Adrenaline and Hunt's End should stack additively and not multiplicatively with other % boosts.

Ideally they would both be turned into actual attacks and not buffs, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[wdhvenrick]

Ah! Boulder's Might was not nerfed, it's bugged. It got missed in the pass and is still using Ws which isn't showing up in the tool tip. It will have a 50% bonus.

Now what about fast and furious seemingly gaining a critical multiplier? Was that intentional or a mistake?