Update 66 Preview 1: Dragon Lord Fighter Archetype
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Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
The bottom of the tree has useful stuff kinda. The upper stuff, you can tell, is from a bygone era.
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
but its ok as its not a caster tree
Bit of a tangential suggestion but on this
DB could really stand to support noncasters better being one of the few str races we have and imbue dice are a thematic fit for them really.
From Steelstar in the discord, might I suggest Draconic Knowledge in dragonborn get a multiselector for +2 imbue dice to better support Dragonlord and other melees using the race?
DB could really stand to support noncasters better being one of the few str races we have and imbue dice are a thematic fit for them really.
This is a HORRIBLE exchange on crit.
You can get +2 multi in t5 dlord. Or you can get +2 threat in ravager.
You have NO way to get threat AND multi. This leaves the bottom of the rung thf weapons _really_ behind. From that other thread...
gaxe: multi - base x3 multi, +2 t5 dlord +1 ld t5 (total x6 multi)
threat - 20, +1 improved crit (threat 19-20)
6x2 = 12 damage thingy
That is horrible!
You can get +2 multi in t5 dlord. Or you can get +2 threat in ravager.
You have NO way to get threat AND multi. This leaves the bottom of the rung thf weapons _really_ behind. From that other thread...
gaxe: multi - base x3 multi, +2 t5 dlord +1 ld t5 (total x6 multi)
threat - 20, +1 improved crit (threat 19-20)
6x2 = 12 damage thingy
That is horrible!
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
+2 multi is better than +1/+1.
It's the same "dilemma" that barbarians have. +2 crit multiplier is great for falchions (15-20/x4) and Sword of Shadow (15-20/x5). +2 crit range is great for greataxes (17-20/x3 most of the time, 17-20/x4 for Riftmaker) along with passive self-healing from Blood Strength.
I think ultimately, with thf, gaxe and gclub are so far behind the curve they can't see the other side. Both sides of the dlord tree (threat vrs multi) are great for, as mentioned, sos and falchions, and gswords under certain conditions. We really should get an upgrade for these other thf weapons :/
Add maul to this group.
Great Crossbow is also far behind Repeater with 3-4 shots (trip feature could be added on crit instead of vorpal to compensate it a little, or maybe making it cone weapon).
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
This.....
This so much....
SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS eSoS eSoS eSoS eSoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS SoS eSoS eSoS eSoS eSoS Falchion <something, something>...
It's SO STUPID.
Guntango
Well-known member
I'm not a big fan of an easy button to make all weapons viable in the hands of any build. Khopesh was a bis weapon until "everyone gets a prize" knights training was released, making khopesh worthless - we could just remove it from game at this point. There's nothing exotic about khopesh when a longsword can do the same thing. It's been reduced to a cool cosmetic.
GAXE can currently put up some pretty fun, on-demand crits if you build for it.
I don't remember a time when Great Clubs or Kamas were considered even passable dps - they basically exist in game so that you have weapon options to always avoid (This is not a dare to see if Teth can make a cool kama melee build). There are a number of average weapons, but most of them are made better when used with specific enhancements, destiny trees, feats or builds.
Silvanus for Mauls, VKF for daggers, etc, etc. I prefer specializing to increase the damage you do with a specific weapon (or type).
There was a time when rapiers were used quite a bit to apply effects on crit because of their inherent crit range (barbs dual wielding wounding of puncturing reducing con to nothing in a few hits, 13-20 crit range, 15 years ago). It would be fun to see them make a bit of a comeback, unfortunately the juice ain't worth the squeeze right now.
So, yes to specific paths for specific weapons to bring their performance up to par.
GAXE can currently put up some pretty fun, on-demand crits if you build for it.
I don't remember a time when Great Clubs or Kamas were considered even passable dps - they basically exist in game so that you have weapon options to always avoid (This is not a dare to see if Teth can make a cool kama melee build). There are a number of average weapons, but most of them are made better when used with specific enhancements, destiny trees, feats or builds.
Silvanus for Mauls, VKF for daggers, etc, etc. I prefer specializing to increase the damage you do with a specific weapon (or type).
There was a time when rapiers were used quite a bit to apply effects on crit because of their inherent crit range (barbs dual wielding wounding of puncturing reducing con to nothing in a few hits, 13-20 crit range, 15 years ago). It would be fun to see them make a bit of a comeback, unfortunately the juice ain't worth the squeeze right now.
So, yes to specific paths for specific weapons to bring their performance up to par.
Cetus
Well-known member
Investing in front number DPS needs to increase in significance as compared to investments in back-number DPS. Sneak attack damage was always very significant back-end damage (appropriately so). With the introduction of imbue dice, back-end damage became even more powerful.
This is why every high attack speed build (which is essentially everyone, to varying degrees, except THF) pulls ahead, especially the shifter shenanigans. All of this back-end damage does not have an internal proc cooldown. The more hits connect, the more it procs. THF loses.
To me, this difference was really palpable when I ran the new illithid challenge quests on high reaper. I have min-maxed my front-number GAxe damage, to just see 0's when I attacked the "thrall" enemies. It legitimately felt like a joke.
This is why every high attack speed build (which is essentially everyone, to varying degrees, except THF) pulls ahead, especially the shifter shenanigans. All of this back-end damage does not have an internal proc cooldown. The more hits connect, the more it procs. THF loses.
To me, this difference was really palpable when I ran the new illithid challenge quests on high reaper. I have min-maxed my front-number GAxe damage, to just see 0's when I attacked the "thrall" enemies. It legitimately felt like a joke.
Guntango
Well-known member
Rather than nerf imbue, if there were a way to increase the backend number on your THF build to match (or exceed in some circumstances) the backend numbers in high attack speed builds, would that help level the field? Or do you just want your front number to be buffed to the point where no other additional damage is considered for THF Fighter?
Cetus
Well-known member
I'm not asking for an imbue nerf. I just want to enjoy swinging a greataxe without having to automatically concede being relatively low DPS compared to the meta. Strikethrough does not confer enough of an advantage to be game - or even quest- changing; especially with adrenaline only working on one hit. SWF nearly hits as hard as a two-hander for crying out loud lol
As a serious fix, compensation for swinging as if I'm swimming in molasses would pretty much have to be more damage. I think I'd favor a 3.0 mod or +1 multiplier on greataxes (maybe even through a knight's training - kind of feat, or maybe favored weapon - is there a known greataxe deity?). This would be more thematic than doing backend buffs. But, if you suggested doubling SA/Imbue damage on two-handers, I wouldn't argue much (although it still wouldn't be that big of a difference, THF builds aren't likely capitalizing on much SA or even have access to imbue to begin with - for example, Kensei).
As a serious fix, compensation for swinging as if I'm swimming in molasses would pretty much have to be more damage. I think I'd favor a 3.0 mod or +1 multiplier on greataxes (maybe even through a knight's training - kind of feat, or maybe favored weapon - is there a known greataxe deity?). This would be more thematic than doing backend buffs. But, if you suggested doubling SA/Imbue damage on two-handers, I wouldn't argue much (although it still wouldn't be that big of a difference, THF builds aren't likely capitalizing on much SA or even have access to imbue to begin with - for example, Kensei).
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Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
If they added additional variables to factor in say a "Armor Vs. Attack type" so certain monsters being much more vulnerable (150% damage) versus certain attack types (bludgeon for example) or maybe certain attack types like a flail can "entangle" and have a "disarm" feature where the monster can't attack for a few seconds....
Then things can get MUCH more interesting. But now it's just crit profile over everything. It seriously dumbs down the game and makes it boring.
Then things can get MUCH more interesting. But now it's just crit profile over everything. It seriously dumbs down the game and makes it boring.
Guntango
Well-known member
That sounds like a decent path forward for GA specialization though you're still swinging through molasses. The old lay waste (?) had a few quick hits in progression with a short cool down. Those together or something like it would make a difference.
songswrath
Well-known member
I like to see a plus 1 CRT to all two hand weapons as feat taken in later levels maybe a 12 or 15 bab requirement
ChaoticDrivel
Well-known member
It would be nice for these archetypes to have more unique abilities, instead of usually just being a mish-mash of things that already exist in the game elsewhere. That will help them stand out more; both in gameplay and flavour.
And they really should have their own icons on the UI.
And they really should have their own icons on the UI.
SpartanKiller13
Well-known member
Not here to tell ya how to run your build, but have you tried Eidolon there? I picked one up for the Illithid quests and it's super nice even with just Cha/Ins Cha diamonds slotted in the weapon lol. Feels really stupid losing like 70 of your to-combat stat, but it works really well so...
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