Update 66 Preview 2: AOE Ranged Attacks

[Wini]

I dislike AOE ranged effects and I will be avoiding the use of all these attacks.

I play medium/high reaper at cap and the last thing I want to do is grab aggro from more than a mob at a time, unless I choose IPS in a particular narrow situation.

I feel bad for losing some single target effects like PIN, but I suppose it's time to adapt, change build or just TR.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

Could you explain in detail? I dont play ranged atm but I do see some negative effects:

a) Wont get +2 crit mult (sniper shot) or +250 damage (slayer arrow) together with Hunts End (but will get both a Hunts End and a Sniper Shot / Slayer Arrow attack instead). Definitely a big nerf.


b) Hunts End will result in misses/deflects where today it simply carries over to the next attack. Another pretty big nerf in particular when deflecting mobs are around.

Am I overlooking anything else?

My suggestion would be to lower the cool down to 6 seconds on Hunts End to compensate.

The critical multiplier is the point. That is why players chase crit X in trees, feats, or weapons. Crit X is exponentially greater DPS than Damage %. What is the purpose of Sniper Shot? It is to take out a single target with one huge alpha strike. This functions in heroics as designed. Sniper Shot on its own no longer does that in Epics because your standard trash mob in end-game play has 8K-16K HPs. Hunt's End functions as a force multiplier to Sniper Shot allowing it to perform as designed on Epic mobs. Removing this effectively destroys the ability in Epic play. The entire purpose of a sniping archer - remove that Epic Demon Soul Champion is now gone, replaced by hey let's hit those two mobs next to each other, if they don't move, (remember in new quest design mobs don't trigger and can't be targeted until you're virtually on top of them) for 10% extra damage. Congrats, we just hit two mobs for 3500 damage who are now agro'd on us instead of deleting one mob as a hunter sniper is supposed to do.

The deflect carryover is another massive change. Primarily because game design tends to revolve around mobs that have a ton of deflect or none. So let's take Skeletons in the Closet. Already an annoying raid to deal with trash on ranged it is not uncommon to have four deflects in a row if melee hasn't prepped a skeleton. But at least on your 5th shot, you'd trigger your Hunt's End. Now you might never effectively land Hunt's End in a raid like Skeleton's in the Closet. The strike rate would probably be 20-30% depending on your luck. And if you just have to sit around waiting for a mob to be prepped by ranged with an ability that causes drastically less damage without Sniper Shot, what's the point of even having a ranged build in the raid?

 

[mikarddo]

The critical multiplier is the point. That is why players chase crit X in trees, feats, or weapons. Crit X is exponentially greater DPS than Damage %. What is the purpose of Sniper Shot? It is to take out a single target with one huge alpha strike. This functions in heroics as designed. Sniper Shot on its own no longer does that in Epics because your standard trash mob in end-game play has 8K-16K HPs. Hunt's End functions as a force multiplier to Sniper Shot allowing it to perform as designed on Epic mobs. Removing this effectively destroys the ability in Epic play. The entire purpose of a sniping archer - remove that Epic Demon Soul Champion is now gone, replaced by hey let's hit those two mobs next to each other, if they don't move, (remember in new quest design mobs don't trigger and can't be targeted until you're virtually on top of them) for 10% extra damage. Congrats, we just hit two mobs for 3500 damage who are now agro'd on us instead of deleting one mob as a hunter sniper is supposed to do.

The deflect carryover is another massive change. Primarily because game design tends to revolve around mobs that have a ton of deflect or none. So let's take Skeletons in the Closet. Already an annoying raid to deal with trash on ranged it is not uncommon to have four deflects in a row if melee hasn't prepped a skeleton. But at least on your 5th shot, you'd trigger your Hunt's End. Now you might never effectively land Hunt's End in a raid like Skeleton's in the Closet. The strike rate would probably be 20-30% depending on your luck. And if you just have to sit around waiting for a mob to be prepped by ranged with an ability that causes drastically less damage without Sniper Shot, what's the point of even having a ranged build in the raid?

Thanks, those were exactly the reasons I also listed, so in short I had not missed anything. Much appreciate the confirmation.

 

[Ying]

I play medium/high reaper at cap and the last thing I want to do is grab aggro from more than a mob at a time, unless I choose IPS in a particular narrow situation.

The only way you're grabbing aggro as ranged in mid/high skulls is if you engage a pack of mobs before melee do, or before crowd control (Mass Hold, BoGW, etc) is applied. The aggro issues with ranged are limited to single-target damage against a boss, primarily due to imbue dice. And if you're grabbing aggro before melee and CC, know that other players despise you for it because it makes their job harder multiple times over.

 

[Anck-su-namun]

I don't think people are fully grasping what a huge nerf to ranged DPS this is going to be. These +10% damage AOE abilities in a tiny burst template are trivial compared to the loss of Hunt's End at end game. I'm shell-shocked, frankly.

I completely agree with you on this one. This is such a substantial nerf to end game AA ranged DPS. Hunt's End needs to be able to boost your next shot to make any difference in end game bow builds. Devs need to strongly consider a viable option in keeping Hunt's End to be used as is without any AOE. Give us the choice! Hunt's End should not become another AA arrow of slaying.

 

[rabidfox]

Here's a little visual indicator of how the new AoEs being a single shot regardless a weapon type would stack up because of current doubleshot scaling. The same thing happens with epic abilities that have ICDs that limit proc rates to 1 per second and other abilities that only work on 1 bolt out of a volley; it makes them subpar choices for weapons that need constant procs and multiple hits. Inquisitive also has the same issue with their value being in the middle of these two.

(*unless my values are off, in which case, being the internet someone will point that out instantly hahah =) )

 

[Zretch]

That's fine, if the doubleshot penalty for repeaters and dual-shooters is removed from AoE ranged attacks. Given the history of the dshot penalty with those playstyles, players assume the dshot penalty still applies with AoE strikes until you clarify otherwise. It's not exactly easy to test if the dshot penalty applies. So help us out here and clarify for us what the intention is with AOE ranged attacks, dshot penalties and repeaters/dual shooters.

I understand the patch notes to say that the AoE attacks won't take doubleshot into account at all, for anyone. You get a single hit, as if your character had 0 doubleshot. Would have to guess that throwers won't be too jazzed.

 

[rabidfox]

I understand the patch notes to say that the AoE attacks won't take doubleshot into account at all, for anyone. You get a single hit, as if your character had 0 doubleshot. Would have to guess that throwers won't be too jazzed.

I interpreted the notes differently. When I used the attack on my repeater, it physically fired a single bolt (and not the 3 follow up shots); hence "single shot". I don't read that as doubleshot value not being used; if that's the case then SSG effectively makes a bunch of gear and AP spends completely meaningless; which is just as annoying a problem as doubleshot scaling issues.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

I think these changes are pretty well balanced TBH. They provide much needed effective ranged AOE but avoid introducing an OP situation that would inevitably be nerfed.

Experience suggests this will lead to a better overall outcome than what would be left post nerf, because nerfs tend to be over zealous in application.

It's far better to avoid those nerfs in the first place and this appears to me to be on the right track in this regard.

 

[FixBows]

I think these changes are pretty well balanced TBH. They provide much needed effective ranged AOE but avoid introducing an OP situation that would inevitably be nerfed.

Experience suggests this will lead to a better overall outcome than what would be left post nerf, because nerfs tend to be over zealous in application.

It's far better to avoid those nerfs in the first place and this appears to me to be on the right track in this regard.

I could not disagree more. The DPS loss for what is a very small area of affect for an AOE attack makes this a flat out nerf. IPS already offers ranged AOE and is much more useable than what I have tested on Lamannia (miniscule hitbox with limited skills available).

 

[Oliphant]

Jack, we're not avoiding nerfs here, this is the ultimate nerf. See the Epic Destinies Thread OP re: Hunts End.

 

[Teh_Troll]

I don't think people are fully grasping what a huge nerf to ranged DPS this is going to be. These +10% damage AOE abilities in a tiny burst template are trivial compared to the loss of Hunt's End at end game. I'm shell-shocked, frankly.

We are, which is why we're roasting all these bad ideas.

 

[Oliphant]

We are, which is why we're roasting all these bad ideas.

A lot of the early roasting on HE and the new HE pod person was in the Epic Destinies thread. This thread had to simmer a bit.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Jack, we're not avoiding nerfs here, this is the ultimate nerf. See the Epic Destinies Thread OP re: Hunts End.

Yeah, read that, point taken.

They should not be nerfing HE, and instead just not have it proc as an AOE.

But really, expecting an AOE HE (as was) is asking far too much IMO and would be begging for the nerf bat like... Well I best not say... Kids may be present!

So whilst I reckon something had to give from Preview 1, and am glad the Devs are recognising that, yeah, nerfing HE isn't the right way to do it IMO.

Better to apply AOE with a bit more finesse.

 

[FixBows]

Unfortunately, the history with this game is that once it hits Lamannia, decisions have already been made. For better, or in this case for worse, we are going to be forced to play ranged combat in this new unwanted format. Hopefully, this time around they heed some of the negative feedback from their customers.

 

[FixBows]

Yeah, read that, point taken.

They should not be nerfing HE, and instead just not have it proc as an AOE.

But really, expecting an AOE HE (as was) is asking far too much IMO and would be begging for the nerf bat like... Well I best not say... Kids may be present!

So whilst I reckon something had to give from Preview 1, and am glad the Devs are recognising that, yeah, nerfing HE isn't the right way to do it IMO.

Better to apply AOE with a bit more finesse.

I am suggesting a 3rd stance for AOE. When active, HE becomes a single shot like it is on Lamannia now. When not active, HE remains as is on live servers.

 

[Oliphant]

But really, expecting an AOE HE (as was) is asking far too much IMO and would be begging for the nerf bat like... Well I best not say... Kids may be present!

So whilst I reckon something had to give from Preview 1, and am glad the Devs are recognising that, yeah, nerfing HE isn't the right way to do it IMO.

Better to apply AOE with a bit more finesse.

My comment on ranged AOE in the first preview was AOE ranged attacks cool, but the last thing I'd want is a bunch of OP ranged AOE to result in nerfing Hunts End/single target, which is ranged DPS's real job when the going gets tough. Not to mention for me HE was the best designed mechanic in the entirety of DDO given the lagginess and the resilience to lag of the HE mechanic.

 

[Tilomere]

Heh, my ranged is clocking in at very high numbers.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

It's definitely a nerf for Hunt's End, but it doesn't seem enourmous. You lose what, 2 multiplier? It's a 20-40% damage loss depending on build (bow being least hit, crossbows/shuri being the most). I feel bad for AA/Slayer Arrow though. AA T5 had one thing going for it, and that was combining Slayer Arrow with Hunt's End. Now it's basically just a regular x2 dmg attack on a very long CD. I think you should buff it somehow, but having a fixed +250dmg (which is good because AA have low +dmg) makes it a bit tricky to not make it OP in heroics.

 

[FixBows]

It's definitely a nerf for Hunt's End, but it doesn't seem enourmous. You lose what, 2 multiplier? It's a 20-40% damage loss depending on build (bow being least hit, crossbows/shuri being the most). I feel bad for AA/Slayer Arrow though. AA T5 had one thing going for it, and that was combining Slayer Arrow with Hunt's End. Now it's basically just a regular x2 dmg attack on a very long CD. I think you should buff it somehow, but having a fixed +250dmg (which is good because AA have low +dmg) makes it a bit tricky to not make it OP in heroics.

I am not sure what other's peoples dps numbers look like, but I went down a ton for me, not just a little. I am talking about HE + sniper shot including all other damage sources inherent to my build (such as SA). Hunt's end on Lamannia is delivering about 1/3 to 1/10 of the damage, depending on the roll and SA damage, than what I am able to produce on live servers.

Also, maybe not related to the quote above, I am not sure why folks are brining in the AOE aspect of nerfing HE. It doesn't work with AOE on Lammania anyway. it is just flat out nerfed with no impact to AOE since only pin seems to have any AOE affect.