You dont get much from vanguard or stalwart, so spreading between ravager and dl gets you to a flat 39 but a whole ton of tactics, and a trance.
Update 66 Preview 2: Dragon Lord Fighter Archetype
- Thread starter SteelStar
- Start date
Coffey
Well-known member
I think where it makes up a lot of ground is with the 20% vulnerable damage and the imbue.
Offhand 10% hit chance is great for TWF. The imbue gets double damage with TWF. The AOE Dragons Roar gives a lot of time and space from mobs which is needed for a single target melee at times. Whirlwind and a few finishing hits and done!
The other difference is the low doublestrike that affects some more than others. If you never relied on the Kensei core 6 15 DS you certainly wont miss it from DL now.
Edit: also forgot about the elemental bypass from sunder for 10 sec is great QOL.
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Thank you so much
Aaabbbcccddd
Well-known member
You can actually look it up yourself here.
Lazuli
Well-known member
Why does a melee have access to immunity stripping and, on the other hand, full casters still don't have access to one, or do they have it so devalued that it is almost useless (wizards)? Melees have the best dps, they don't need immunity stripping.
Coffey
Well-known member
Could make it a force imbue to make it simple and effective.
There's some cool and fun stuff here, but thematically this bothers me:
- Untouchable Soul: You have Displacement, giving opponents a 50% chance to miss you due to concealment. This cannot be dispelled.
Why is a fighter class way better at displacement than a wizard or bard? I hate this kind of lazy power creep where the new class has to have everything that all previous classes have and more. The dragon lord does a bunch of things better than any other class, and it'll be super attractive both for newer players and meta builds. It doesn't need to also take things away from older classes.
For the auras would anyone take anything other than tactical feats + damage + melee power???
- Untouchable Soul: You have Displacement, giving opponents a 50% chance to miss you due to concealment. This cannot be dispelled.
Why is a fighter class way better at displacement than a wizard or bard? I hate this kind of lazy power creep where the new class has to have everything that all previous classes have and more. The dragon lord does a bunch of things better than any other class, and it'll be super attractive both for newer players and meta builds. It doesn't need to also take things away from older classes.
For the auras would anyone take anything other than tactical feats + damage + melee power???
Usually I agree with you. But not on this one. Without stripping the elemental imbue would be as silly as the on hit elemental damage weapons still tote. I think it does stand to say however that EK should have a similar strip added.
I'd like to see EK changed to be a force imbue and perhaps a T4 option that gives you the elemental options. I think between Eldritch Strike and Eldritch Tempest, it is weird that EK's main imbue is elemental instead of force like the man attacks of the tree.
Lazuli
Well-known member
If a simple imbue is meaningless without bypass, what about the warlock class, which loses half its dps or even a little more against immune enemies? How is it possible that a melee whose main source of damage is the best in the game suffers so much without a bypass for his imbue, but the warlock is fine losing more than half of his dps?
I see a very strange bias here in the dev’s balance concept, Edrein.
My arti with repeater has an electric imbue, and has a runearm that does elemental damage. And no dev has considered that she needs a bypass (the bypass is at tier 5 of the caster tree), because she has physical damage with his xbow. But does the fighter need bypass? Why dragonlord and not the xbow arti? I also want a bypass for my artificer!
I've been begging for years that devs shift from a 100% specialist-oriented design to a design that also allows the wizard to use their entire spellbook (equipment - designed for people who use only one or two spellpowers. ED caster mantles-- all designed for people with bypass. Epic feats- all for specialist casters). They don't design for a class to be able to use their entire spellbook, but they also don't give it a functional bypass. But a melee class whose elemental damage is a fraction of its dps does deserve a bypass? Really?
What kind of balance is this, Edrein? What do devs have in mind when they say they seek balance?
For an AA or an EK it is correct to use alternative elements, they say. Well, let them do the same for the dragonlord. A dragon, whether chromatic or metallic, is not only defined by its element. Dragons are also defined by their alignment. Dragonlord imbue could have alternatives of elemental and alignment damage. That would put it on par with AA imbue.
Come on, edrein, I'm tired of seeing how there are first and second class classes for the devs. If the dragonlord deserves an imbue, then the warlock should come out of this update with another imbue because warlock needs it MUCH MORE. Then the xbow arti deserves it too. And they should think about designing so that the wizard is not always a second class to bypass casters.
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If you were a ranged dlord, which apparently people are putting builds together for as we speak.
Well written. My only excuse I can give for the devs in this circumstance is the fact that Dragonlord only gains one element and doesn't have the additional imbues to swap to.
By no means am I saying that's right. But when we give negative feedback that more or less translates as, "Why does 'X' get this instead of 'Y'?" there's a greater chance that the negative feedback will result in 'X' losing the feature to be on par with 'Y' instead of pointing out that 'Y' could use a boost.
If I had to wager a guess as to why none of the aforementioned trees have gotten a strip, it's because the Devs have a bias against Spellpower scaling. I'm not saying it's fair, but it's the universal feature that they all possess compared to Dragonlord at this stage.
That being said; the other melee/ranged power scaling imbues don't possess strip capabilities.
I guess my point is; less bucket of crabs mentality of complaining that 'X' got the feature we'd like to see on 'Y' and wanting 'X' to lose features because it doesn't fit what we understand/see as balance. Instead we should focus on requesting that 'Y' get a similar treatment or a secondary glance over. I get getting frustrated and reaching the point you want to just see things get nerfed if other things won't get buffed. But I think the malaise in the ED thread should prove why that form of feedback is detrimental to the entire ecosystem of game design.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
Given the introduction of Dragon Lord will, apparently, necessitate changes to Ravager's capstone, will a free Lesser Heart be provided for those Pure Barb Ravagers who will now have to realign and rebuild their builds away from the currently heavy Con focus to Cha and Intimidate? 
This could be made available via a vendor accessible only by pure barb builds, 1 per account, and BTC.
And the approach could be re-used with different access parameters set for any similarly disruptive developments on certain builds going forward.
This could be made available via a vendor accessible only by pure barb builds, 1 per account, and BTC.
And the approach could be re-used with different access parameters set for any similarly disruptive developments on certain builds going forward.
I do not recall seeing anything to this effect at all? My understanding is that it would be the dlord ravagers capstone, not the barb one.
General Ravager Changes in This Update
These apply to both Barbarian and Dragon Lord Ravager:
Ravager's Visage of Terror now has a DC of (1d20 + Intimidate Score).
Ravager's Visage of Terror no longer requires Rage Charges.
Ravager's Cruel Cut now deals +20/30/40% damage in addition to its other effects.
Ravager's Cruel Cut now has a 20 second cooldown (previously 30).
Fleming
Well-known member
"Ravager's Visage of Terror now has a DC of (1d20 + Intimidate Score)."
On Live currently its con based.
It also appears bugged on Live in that even with a Constitution of say 120 your DC would be 75 (55 mod+10+10 for half barb level), but it consistently affects Legendary creatures. If whatever it is targetting gets 'fixed' then unless you work hard (or completely respec) you are going to struggle to get it to stick.
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
I kept telling them Visage of Terror is utterly useless on Lam and it's NOT a meaningful buff nor an alternative to Frenzied Berserker which is still the gold standard for Barbs.
Again, it all sounds good on paper but it sucks hard in actual gameplay.
Coffey
Well-known member
I dont think there are many enemies vulnerable to force damage. At least EK has a toggle choice of elements and a chance of extra damage on vulnerabilities. Resistances are an interesting and sometimes annoying part of the game like needing ghost touch or true seeing lol.
On the strip subject, Sorcs never should have gotten an immunity strip, a tool to let them ignore immunities to their specialized element? Sure. But overall removing an enemy's defences should have always been more a supportive tool than something designated to the casters who are allowed to be good.
In my opinion Dragonlord which is giving up the best dps tree in the game for a more utility focused tree with elemental theming is absolutely an appropriate place for an immunity strip which benefits their party.
Should warlock have better tools for dealing with immunities? Absolutely. Too much of their power budget is loaded into pact element which you can't really compensate for and SSG seem to be doubling down on that stance by only really letting them use mantles based on the pact element.
Should sorcs get to feel unique and special at the expense of everyone else? You've already got half cooldown and half cast time and the majority of the best spells, if you feel that the class identity is "Everyone else has to suck for me to feel good" then by and large most people will disagree with you.
Are melee outperforming casters at sustained single target damage? Of course and it's rather by design cause where else is melee meant to actually serve a purpose? But again, this is not a fighter as you know them. This leans more towards melee bard territory than kensei fighter in terms of dps. This is primarily a support archetype by design as you'd see reading more than the bits you disagree with.
In my opinion Dragonlord which is giving up the best dps tree in the game for a more utility focused tree with elemental theming is absolutely an appropriate place for an immunity strip which benefits their party.
Should warlock have better tools for dealing with immunities? Absolutely. Too much of their power budget is loaded into pact element which you can't really compensate for and SSG seem to be doubling down on that stance by only really letting them use mantles based on the pact element.
Should sorcs get to feel unique and special at the expense of everyone else? You've already got half cooldown and half cast time and the majority of the best spells, if you feel that the class identity is "Everyone else has to suck for me to feel good" then by and large most people will disagree with you.
Are melee outperforming casters at sustained single target damage? Of course and it's rather by design cause where else is melee meant to actually serve a purpose? But again, this is not a fighter as you know them. This leans more towards melee bard territory than kensei fighter in terms of dps. This is primarily a support archetype by design as you'd see reading more than the bits you disagree with.
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