Lazuli
Well-known member
Not really. Nowadays mobs drop like flies before a character with good dps. It's been a long time since these types of characters had difficulty dealing with trash.
How does Wizards kill bosses and other monsters that can't be killed by insta kill?
- Thread starter RobShow
- Start date
Guntango
Well-known member
Why does no thoughtful response warrant consideration? It weakens your case.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
Sure, it’s not too hard to deal with trash with a good DPS, but compared to how easily a good DC caster does? 2 AoE instant kills, 2+ single target on short CD, like 4 different ways of no fail cc’ing a pack, all on a char with 4K+ hp and wings… there’s a reason DPS can’t get kills with a DC sorc around.
Lazuli
Well-known member
I have given my reasoning. What else do you want?
If you agree that roles other than dps cannot be given more importance than there is today, then why are you opposed to improving the wizard's dps a little? If dps is to be so important, then there shouldn't be a class so lagging in this regard.
But if dps is not to dominate, then something has to change in the design. But you don't want anything to change. Somewhat contradictory.
Now, if your reasoning, it's okay that a class sucks, then I don't buy it.
RobShow
Well-known member
So the best option would be to leave the wizard as it is and nerf the other A+ casters? I personally liked and preferred teamwork with everyone doing a job, but we know this game design hasn't been around for years.
Lazuli
Well-known member
Well, what people were asking for here with the wizard's dps improvement is similar to that difference you mention. It may not be as easy as other classes, but it is more decent.
If you want parity without changing that, then you should go back to the old days, when damage-dealers had a hard time dealing with trash and you really needed a DC caster for that job.
Don't you want that? (I wouldn't even mind going back to those times, by the way, then everyone was necessary). Well, the only thing that has been requested here is an improvement in dps, nothing more.
Even so, the truth is, debuffs should come from spells and not from epic abilities or equipment within reach. That would have given more identity to the classes instead of devaluing their differences.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
Eh, wizard can be just as dominant in DC casting, they just make up for the longer CDs with more spells to cast. DC casters with current DCs are always going to tear through trash, which is why they can’t be good at killing red names. Before wizard gets more DPS, dc casting needs to be weakened probably, otherwise you go back to the stupid-good Zappy wizards that make every other role in the party irrelevant (and that was back when r10s were substantially harder than they are now)
Lazuli
Well-known member
oh no just A+ casters. To all weapon users too. Nowadays melees tear down through mobs.
But no, they want to maintain their supremacy without giving space to others.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
I wouldn’t mind if this happened if wizards were forced to choose like sorcs are-you really can’t be a DC and damage sorc. If wizard got the same options, that’s fine by me, but adding damage to dc wizard seems very dangerous.
Lazuli
Well-known member
This argument does not hold water. Nowadays A+ casters, with much more dps, have more than enough Dc for CC and mass kills as well. And the melees today are in a dominant position, which no caster can't match. Please, let's not act like the wizards are dominating anything.
Lazuli
Well-known member
I disagree. My sorc has IKs and has damage, much more than the wizard. It also has CC. The days when a sorc could only do one thing are long gone. Not a first lifer, but a sorc with enough investment has DC to run IKs, CC without losing significantly in damage.
Currently a sorc only needs to have a few damage spells from its element, thanks to its fast casting and immunity bypass. The slots that he previously dedicated to his second element, because they do not have bypass, can now be dedicated to CC and IKs.
Is my sorc worse at DC casting than my wizard? Yes, a little, but my wizard is much worse at dps. More parity, bringing differences closer, is what is requested. It is not asked to match in dps either.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
I think I see the difference-we’re thinking of different levels of DC sorc ease of handling trash. I’m talking about pure DC, t5 Shadowdancer and either Feydark, Falc, or EK. No stopping, no damage, just DC casting packs. There are probably a few ppl playing them on all servers, they’re rampant on Argo atm. Melees do not get to touch mobs that haven’t been CC’d.
Lazuli
Well-known member
But what you fear will not happen. Those pure DC casters will never have dps, because all their options are invested in DC.
But currently there are wizards who have invested in enough dps to no longer depend on groups (although I love grouping, I don't always have that luxury), and that investment is not rewarded by the results.
It is not possible to have damage without an investment. If the wizard options were improved in this sense, it would still need the investment. And those DC casters you talk about haven't made any investment in dps.
Guntango
Well-known member
Show your math, please.
magnus2882
Active member
Not sure what you are getting on about, I was correcting what you wrote as originally it was very ambiguous, and misleading. Not sure how accusing me of spreading nonsense is helping this thread, don't blame me, blame your grammar.
Lazuli
Well-known member
Gunga, you are no rookie in the game. You know it well and you know perfectly well how far behind the wizard is in dps. You feel like creating controversy, but I'm not about to get into that game.
Lazuli
Well-known member
Stop stop, you started by saying that I was spreading misinformation. And don't come in now with an ad hominen argument about my grammar. I am not a native speaker and I know very well that my English leaves a lot to be desired, but I made very clear that the only thing the feat did was increase the duration of the death auras by a few seconds and that in my opinion it was not worth. I also said it only had a noticeable effect on NEB: I even said that the feat could be called Master of Negative Energy Burst instead of Master of Death.
Maybe, if you had read me, you would have understood. Mysteriously you are the only one who hasn't understood it. Since you seem to be a native speaker, I have to deduce that you rushed to utter an attack against me when reading the first words of the post instead of reading it in its entirety.
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Guntango
Well-known member
I'm going to have to since you guys can't. You're welcome.
Take all your words and apply them!
Take YOUR wizard and show us that it is equivalent in DPS with the Sorcerer for example. Show the evidence of YOUR wizard finishing quests in high reaper like the sorcerer does.
1. We'll see if you can do it.
2. How long does it take?
3. Finishing a quest by taking double, triple the time proves to anyone that the damage is not equivalent.
What if you do roll a DPS wizard and solo R10s, then SSG nerfs wizard DPS because they're too strong?
Sarlona Raiding
Well-known member
At least to me the issue with wizard isn't raw dps. High level arcane spells deal much more damage than they once did.
The primary issue I have with wizard is immunties and enemies that heal from an element. As a side effect this impacts gearing and spell selection significantly since you have to gear for multiple spell power types. I am not familar with the greater ruin/ruin nerf, those spells work great for me generally and the only nerf I am familiar with is R7+ not R4.
Draconic is especially promblatic for wizard when dealing with enemies that are healed by your main element. Let's say for example you are playing a palemaster specializing in negative, fire and force which is 3 things and requires significant gearing. Now you run Castle Ravenloft and get the cards with 2 red named golems at the end.
For the iron golems negative doesn't work at all. Fire heals the golems which leaves you with force. Ruin and Greater ruin are great, but..... there is no way to turn off the draconic fire element of those spells and from my experience the fire portion heals the golems more than the force portion hurts them. So unless you one shot them they are useless. Every other spell in your spell book is going to get big damage reduction or something like disintegrate just doesn't scale well to legendary. There likely won't be any souls to refill your sp. So yeah, it's going to suck as as wizard and nobody should need a spreadsheet to understand that.
In addition force and negative don't benefit from energy criticals. There are a few light and negative damage items that boost your crits to make up for that but it's been a long while since gear included those - so they often don't fit well into gear sets. I think the dev that understood the loss of energy criticals and designed those items is either gone or no longer making loot.
For a long time I used casters to solo content because they just had a better toolkit for soloing even though I prefer melee or raiding. At least now I would prefer to solo on my dragonlord because although cc and aoe isn't quite as good as top tier casting, it's close enough and hitting high dcs are easier. Survivability is much better. Single-target dps is much better. I am more useful in raids as a melee by a huge margin.
On balance I am ok with the devs making melee better than casters becasue I found it frustrating my caster would be great for questing, but I would alway have to switch to a melee for raids.
This is game where balances changes always go too far too quick and usually for all the wrong reasons.
I think you get more mileage out of moving to what works vs. trying to explain your concerns to the devs. Other players are going to jump on you in these threads, sometimes to confuse the issue because they don't want their build nerfed, and the devs don't seem very good at weeding through comments and getting at the core issue. The wack-a-mole approach to balance just means the nerfs tend to go too far and the buffs are often times perplexing.
Good luck. If you prefer casting I would go druid or sorc. They are the best 2 casting classes right now. However, why not get some dragonlord lifes and try that out. It should work way better at soloing R4 than wizard and is also better at pushing skulls higher solo. All the best.
The primary issue I have with wizard is immunties and enemies that heal from an element. As a side effect this impacts gearing and spell selection significantly since you have to gear for multiple spell power types. I am not familar with the greater ruin/ruin nerf, those spells work great for me generally and the only nerf I am familiar with is R7+ not R4.
Draconic is especially promblatic for wizard when dealing with enemies that are healed by your main element. Let's say for example you are playing a palemaster specializing in negative, fire and force which is 3 things and requires significant gearing. Now you run Castle Ravenloft and get the cards with 2 red named golems at the end.
For the iron golems negative doesn't work at all. Fire heals the golems which leaves you with force. Ruin and Greater ruin are great, but..... there is no way to turn off the draconic fire element of those spells and from my experience the fire portion heals the golems more than the force portion hurts them. So unless you one shot them they are useless. Every other spell in your spell book is going to get big damage reduction or something like disintegrate just doesn't scale well to legendary. There likely won't be any souls to refill your sp. So yeah, it's going to suck as as wizard and nobody should need a spreadsheet to understand that.
In addition force and negative don't benefit from energy criticals. There are a few light and negative damage items that boost your crits to make up for that but it's been a long while since gear included those - so they often don't fit well into gear sets. I think the dev that understood the loss of energy criticals and designed those items is either gone or no longer making loot.
For a long time I used casters to solo content because they just had a better toolkit for soloing even though I prefer melee or raiding. At least now I would prefer to solo on my dragonlord because although cc and aoe isn't quite as good as top tier casting, it's close enough and hitting high dcs are easier. Survivability is much better. Single-target dps is much better. I am more useful in raids as a melee by a huge margin.
On balance I am ok with the devs making melee better than casters becasue I found it frustrating my caster would be great for questing, but I would alway have to switch to a melee for raids.
This is game where balances changes always go too far too quick and usually for all the wrong reasons.
I think you get more mileage out of moving to what works vs. trying to explain your concerns to the devs. Other players are going to jump on you in these threads, sometimes to confuse the issue because they don't want their build nerfed, and the devs don't seem very good at weeding through comments and getting at the core issue. The wack-a-mole approach to balance just means the nerfs tend to go too far and the buffs are often times perplexing.
Good luck. If you prefer casting I would go druid or sorc. They are the best 2 casting classes right now. However, why not get some dragonlord lifes and try that out. It should work way better at soloing R4 than wizard and is also better at pushing skulls higher solo. All the best.