How does Wizards kill bosses and other monsters that can't be killed by insta kill?

[Lazuli]

That is not indicative of the class's status as a caster. First, being an archetypal D&D class, many newcomers and casuals try it and that does not mean that it is good in the end game.

Second, being an iconic with DD, it is the easiest class to create as a mule to quickly obtain the kundarak favor (all classes are easy to play in heroic elite, but it helps speed that they have DD and can use teleport without umd )..

Third, there are many people who like the pnp class and are reluctant to let their characters die.

And fourth and not least important, nowadays there are many more EK wizards than pure caster. EK is not a powerful melee in the end game, but an easy build to level up at low difficulty. In fact, the other thread's opener precisely thought that the EK tree was OP because it seemed immensely more powerful than the archmage.

Honestly, Kimbere, your arguments don't hold up. If a class that is too op deserves a nerf, then a class that is left behind should deserve a buff. Although in the case of the wizard, more than a classic buff, what is needed is for the devs to start designing for more caster classes than those that have immunity bypass. Wizard's problem is that he suffers years of neglect in designing options aimed at his platsyle.

Are you so desperate to win the debate that you can't see the frustration of those who actually play wizard casters? I thought more of you than that. Usually I find your arguments reasonable, but here you have closed yourself off in a way that is out of character for you.

 

[Guntango]

That is not indicative of the class's status as a caster. First, being an archetypal D&D class, many newcomers and casuals try it and that does not mean that it is good in the end game.

Second, being an iconic with DD, it is the easiest class to create as a mule to quickly obtain the kundarak favor (all classes are easy to play in heroic elite, but it helps speed that they have DD and can use teleport without umd )..

Third, there are many people who like the pnp class and are reluctant to let their characters die.

And fourth and not least important, nowadays there are many more EK wizards than pure caster. EK is not a powerful melee in the end game, but an easy build to level up at low difficulty. In fact, the OP precisely thought that the EK tree was OP because it seemed immensely more powerful than the archmage.

Honestly, Kimbere, your arguments don't hold up. If a class that is too op deserves a nerf, then a class that is left behind should deserve a buff. Although in the case of the wizard, more than a classic buff, what is needed is for the devs to start designing for more caster classes than those that have immunity bypass. Wizard's problem is that he suffers years of neglect in designing options aimed at his platsyle.

Are you so desperate to win the debate that you can't see the frustration of those who actually play wizard casters? I thought more of you than that. Usually I find your arguments reasonable, but here you have closed yourself off in a way that is out of character for you.

It’s far more compelling than feelsies.

 

[DBZ]

TR builds mostly theres almost none at cap i see anymore

Just looked at entire who list on my server a total of 4 2 those being heroic ya there everywhere

 

[DBZ]

The pendulum swings we all know whats on the block next

 

[Guntango]

Hmm, charts, graphs, logic and evidence vs feelings and don’t listen to them make sense…

Something’s fishy in Denmark.

 

[Hobgoblin]

it depends on what your doing tbh.

r1? you can use most necro spells for damage - necrotic ray does crazy damage as your pumping your neg power for self heals

i like dots so i can trigger them and run around

if your trying to solo higher reaper - caster is not the best and wizard is lower end of the spectrum

 

[Lazuli]

Hmm, charts, graphs, logic and evidence vs feelings and don’t listen to them make sense…

Something’s fishy in Denmark.

Rational arguments in favor of an improvement have been given in abundance. Furthermore, graphs like the ones shown don't mean anything.

You know what does mean a lot? The experience of those of us who play wizards daily, who know the class very well, its strengths and weaknesses. The truth is, the arguments of those who don't play the class saying "it doesn't need help because it's okay that it's only a low difficulty class or because look at these graphs that don't say anything about the efficiency of the class on high difficulties" mean nothing.

If those people don't play the class, they have no idea what its real problems are, period.

 

[woq]

What if that person knows more than you do? Your loss, I guess? The game's loss?

As long as that hypothetical elder wizard of ddo knowledge doesn't chime in on the topic it doesn't count.

 

[Hobgoblin]

and let me chime in here - i have done r10 solos on alch and sorc and wiz.

i wont do it on wiz again.

doable yes - worth the aggravation no

 

[RobShow]

and let me chime in here - i have done r10 solos on alch and sorc and wiz.

i wont do it on wiz again.

doable yes - worth the aggravation no

Did you need double or triple the time to finish? Can you please give us your DPS sources?

 

[Guntango]

Also, if Wizard is so broken, why would the caster for our first life raid challenge choose to be a wizard, Harry?

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/lava-divers-presents-first-life-raid-push-challenge.10267/page-3#post-120151

 

[Kimbere]

That is not indicative of the class's status as a caster. First, being an archetypal D&D class, many newcomers and casuals try it and that does not mean that it is good in the end game.

Second, being an iconic with DD, it is the easiest class to create as a mule to quickly obtain the kundarak favor (all classes are easy to play in heroic elite, but it helps speed that they have DD and can use teleport without umd )..

Third, there are many people who like the pnp class and are reluctant to let their characters die.

And fourth and not least important, nowadays there are many more EK wizards than pure caster. EK is not a powerful melee in the end game, but an easy build to level up at low difficulty. In fact, the other thread's opener precisely thought that the EK tree was OP because it seemed immensely more powerful than the archmage.

Honestly, Kimbere, your arguments don't hold up. If a class that is too op deserves a nerf, then a class that is left behind should deserve a buff. Although in the case of the wizard, more than a classic buff, what is needed is for the devs to start designing for more caster classes than those that have immunity bypass. Wizard's problem is that he suffers years of neglect in designing options aimed at his platsyle.

Are you so desperate to win the debate that you can't see the frustration of those who actually play wizard casters? I thought more of you than that. Usually I find your arguments reasonable, but here you have closed yourself off in a way that is out of character for you.

No, I understand the frustrations. They are the same frustrations that can be found amongst subsets of devoted players of ANY class in the game. They're frustrations born of unrealistic expectations by wishing a class is or can do something other than what SSG has designed or intended.

At this point, anyone who's played DDO for more than 6 months and still expects it to be like pen and paper is living in the land of denial. SSG/DDO left the pen and paper reservation many years ago and isn't coming back.

If you want to become emotionally attached to a given build or character, pen and paper (or possibly Baldur's Gate 3) is what you're looking for, not DDO. Becoming emotionally attached to a favorite build in DDO is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Here in DDO, it's just a matter of time before SSG randomly decides to nerf favorite_build_xxx. Given their track record, it's a when, not an if. It doesn't make much sense to get attached to one when you know SSG will eventually wreck it, often for no good reason. A tiny part of me suspects they do it intentionally to encourage TRs since the TR hamster wheel likely makes them more $$.

Regarding being op vs left behind, that's where our opinions differ. I don't think all classes should be good at all things. I just think SSG's intended design for them just doesn't line up with what some people want them to be. That's different from being left behind or just bad as a whole.

The way I see it, wizards have multiple strengths and good build options. They can be top tier CC casters and instakillers. They can be solid, survivable melee and ranged DPS. They can solo really well in lower skull difficulties.

So their weakness is raw spell DPS and immunity bypass? That's okay (imo). Every class should have weaknesses. That's part of what makes the other classes worth playing. My take on it is, decide what you want your toon's primary function and strengths to be, then pick a class/build that caters to that.

Don't pick a class icon because of some misplaced sense of nostalgia or because you think it *should* be cool, then try to cram that square peg into a round hole. Match the puzzle piece to the hole, pick the right tool for the intended purpose, etc.

For the record, my personal favorites are monk quarterstaff builds, shuricannons, and bards. Apparently, I have terrible taste in nostalgia vs DDO builds, but I accept that for what it is and adjust my expectations accordingly.

None of them are top of the food chain nor A-list R10 soloers, yet you don't see me starting weekly threads here about them needing to be buffed to the point they can solo R10s, do you?

 

[Lazuli]

and let me chime in here - i have done r10 solos on alch and sorc and wiz.

i wont do it on wiz again.

doable yes - worth the aggravation no

yup. As for casters, I solo play r10 in druid, sorc and wizard. Wizard is the hardest, yup.

 

[Guntango]

yup. As for casters, I solo play r10 in druid, sorc and wizard. Wizard is the hardest, yup.

And that's fine.

Do you have any solo videos?

 

[Hobgoblin]

Did you need double or triple the time to finish? Can you please give us your DPS sources?

i think it was 4 or more times the speed.

necrotic ray and necro dot were big spells with breath

i didnt do one with things immune to neg

i did get put into 4k neg hp from divine wrath from the boss.

 

[Kimbere]

/snip Although in the case of the wizard, more than a classic buff, what is needed is for the devs to start designing for more caster classes than those that have immunity bypass. Wizard's problem is that he suffers years of neglect in designing options aimed at his platsyle.

This I can support. That applies to a lot more than just the wizard class, too. SSG is in dire need of diversifying their cookie-cutter, copy/paste content design paradigms.

I just can't support giving wizards R10 solo raw DPS capability. They're too good at other aspects of the game to also have that much raw DPS (imo).

I will say however that farming out immunity bypass to multiple caster DPS classes was and still is a terrible design decision in general. Doing that creates its own set of unneccessary content design challenges and disproportionately favors certain classes/build types over others.

It's a similar problem to how SSG fills most of the areas in a dungeon with hordes of low hp trash mobs instead of a mix of tougher single mobs in some places and hordes of trash mobs in others. That paradigm heavily favors low damage AoE builds over everything else for TRing and leveling speed.

 

[Hobgoblin]

and just as a note wizard is my favorite r10 grouping class

i get the cc, i get the insta kills, i have enough heals and hp to get outta trouble and then i sic the barb on the red name and go afk

 

[rabidfox]

and let me chime in here - i have done r10 solos on alch and sorc and wiz.

i wont do it on wiz again.

doable yes - worth the aggravation no

In my opinion r10 (or high skull) soloing isn't a good basis for defining any class as being in a good place or not. Sure, some builds/classes excel at it, but it's a MMO and things should be defined by being a solid member of group.

 

[RobShow]

i think it was 4 or more times the speed.

necrotic ray and necro dot were big spells with breath

i didnt do one with things immune to neg

i did get put into 4k neg hp from divine wrath from the boss.

I used Negative as the main damage, it's the easiest to get equipment, crit rate, spell power, crit damage. However, the quests I like to play the most are full of undeads and monsters immune to negative. I used Leg. Shoroud's belt to increase critical damage.

 

[Phoenicis]

The problem, as I see it (and frankly, I don't main true casters, I despise the playstyle) is SSG has built themselves into a corner.

If they make mobs That generalist casters can beat in a semi-reasonable amount of time, specialist casters of the right damage type can vuln and obliterate them in seconds.

I have some thoughts on how to possibly mitigate the issue to a degree, but as I said, I don't main casters so I won't step on any toes.