How would you buff/rework monks?

[Fisto Mk I]

The U53 ranged list from Carpone didn't include pure shur

You're inattentive... at least.

likely because the DPS is too low to bother listing (lower than INQ)

Incorrect. Pure 20 Monk have best overall DPS. Just check spreadsheet attentively. Again, it's outdated builds and possible obsolete, but based on the data given there, this is exactly the case.

all the shuri builds in the U53 list are 14 monk at most. HE+Sniper is simply that good.

It's technically correct, because pure 20 Monk surely are at least have 14 Monk lvl, lol.

HE +SS great for burst, burst DPS is awesome, but pure monk have better overall damage output. Cut the String more awesome than HE +SS.

If your ranged build lacks sniper shot, you might as well play INQ and accept that your DPS is at best 50% of a top build.

Wrong again. Just another play style.

Shuri/throw in particular is so bad sub-cap you might as well give up and level as something else then swap to throw at cap)

It's absolutely correct, it's why i myself give exactly same suggestion to newbies.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

You're inattentive... at least.


Incorrect. Pure 20 Monk have best overall DPS. Just check spreadsheet attentively. Again, it's outdated builds and possible obsolete, but based on the data given there, this is exactly the case.



It's technically correct, because pure 20 Monk surely are at least have 14 Monk lvl, lol.

HE +SS great for burst, burst DPS is awesome, but pure monk have better overall damage output. Cut the String more awesome than HE +SS.


Wrong again. Just another play style.

It's absolutely correct, it's why i myself give exactly same suggestion to newbies.

umm I dont wanna be "that guy" but 20Monk is roughly 1.2 while 14/6 is 1.44 but considering the better solo/survivability capabilities I do prefer 20Monk
Just one thing tho the dmg tests are Burst based on Lamm Kobolds and so the time when 10k stars is down isnt taken into consideration (atleast thats my assumption) and thats when 14/6 especially shines but with the flaw that u probably turn into jack Nicholson after 2 runs since the 14/6 build swaps weapons every 30 seconds : Shuri 10k stars ---> 30 sec later u swap to bow and spam thru your Manyshots ----> Swap back to shuri Once 10k is back up ----> repeat ----> go into an asylum ---->

so in a sense yeah hes right that 20Monk Is really Behind 14/6 IF u want to weapon swap every 30 seconds and quit the game after 3 runs

 

[Bjond]

Incorrect. Pure 20 Monk have best overall DPS. Just check spreadsheet attentively. Again, it's outdated builds and possible obsolete, but based on the data given there, this is exactly the case.

We're both referencing old posts that really are NOT data, but rather detailed simulations -- much more detailed than I care to do myself. Big thanks to Carpone for posting it. But, every time I try to beat my own ranged builds, I always loose when I drop sniper shot. And, it's usually by about 20~25%, which is roughly how far non-sniper builds land in the U53 list.

Here's the ranking cut directly from the U53.01 simulations from 2022 sorted from most to least DPS:

1. Bow Shiradi 12/6/2 + FE
2. Bow Shiradi 12/6/2
3. Thrower Shiradi 11/6/3 DWS + FE
4. Bow Shiradi 13/6/1 Monk + FE
5. Thrower Shiradi 11/6/3 DWS
6. Thrower Shiradi 11/6/3 HW + FE
7. Bow Fatesinger 12/6/2
8. Bow Shiradi 13/6/1 Monk
9. Thrower Shiradi 11/6/3 HW
10. Shuri Shiradi DWS 12/6/2 + FE
11. Shuri Shiradi DWS 12/6/2
12. Shuri Shiradi DWS 13/6/1 + FE
13. Shuri Shiradi HW 14/6 + FE
14. Shuri Shiradi DWS 13/6/1
15. Shuri Shiradi HW 13/6/1 + FE
16. Shuri Shiradi HW 14/6
17. Great Crossbow Shiradi
18. Shuri Shiradi HW 13/6/1
19. Heavy Repeater
20. Heavy Repeater 13/6/1
21. Shuri Fatesinger + FE
22. Shuri Fatesinger
23. Light Repeater
24. Inquis Shiradi
25. Inquis Divine Crusader (Shadowstrike)
26. Inquis Divine Crusader (Crusade)

He posted a U53.02 list that's similar and Tilo posted another that adjusts for Magma nerf, but both of them forgot to fix the swash thrower profiles, which should be 15x3 (sheet has 16x3) for a roughly 6% gain on physical for swash builds. The subsequent lists push shuri and thrower above bow, but pure is still down there on the bottom pressing INQ's face into the mud.

But, you're right that pure monk IS on the list. I got tired of clicking the build boxes to drill down and didn't check the worst DPS builds. The ones with sniper are 20~25% more DPS, which is about what I see lost when I try to get rid of sniper (on paper). 'Course pure monk is still about 25% more DPS than INQ back in U53 and I don't think imbues are enough to do more than permit INQ to lift it's nostrils above the muck.

Are you sure you're not looking at an UNsorted list or perhaps sorting on the wrong column? The sheet isn't born sorted. It pops up with a thrower on top for me before I sort it. Maybe it's popping up with pure on top unsorted for you?

The best non-sniper I've seen is Rubbins' Alchemist build. I played a similar EK-based thing long ago. It works and it should beat pure monk from my paper estimates, but it's dull -- no bang. And, it's still less than a sniper build.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Are you sure you're not looking at an UNsorted list or perhaps sorting on the wrong column? The sheet isn't born sorted. It pops up with a thrower on top for me before I sort it. Maybe it's popping up with pure on top unsorted for you?

I remember, we already have such conversation here, and data from U53.02 sheet confirmed my point of view... then. Now I look at the same table, and I see other, different data, and according to this data you are absolutely right... now. What can be said here... either I have a completely bad memory (although I had not complained about it before), or someone eventually changed the table data... 8)

 

[Rub-A-Dub-Dub]

Please elaborate On how Pure Monk is a trap Lmao
14/6 and perhabs 12/6/2 are definetly better DPS wise than 20Monk shuri but they dont offer the same survivability
For Pure Raid dps defo 14/6 but if u just wanna r10 20Monk is great and soo Much easier to pull off

Pure monk thrower is a better solo build and questing build. It does not need to stack 25 archers focus because it gets a much better critical profile than 14/6, and due to that it also is the better ips build. Not that it can't take horizon walker as a tier 5 and ninja spy capstone, but that is more effective in a raid and requires halfling to recoup +1 on critical threat.

 

[Amideus]

2. Monk doesnt need More debuffs its allready a great utility class

Depends on what we are talking about content wise. Monk has SOME useful and unique utility, but for the most part it is overshadowed by most other classes. I wouldn't say monk needs more debuffs, what monk needs is for their current ones to be made more consistent and useable. As it stands most enhancement debuff DCs are useless. As are the monk finishing moves.

3. if u dont manage a good QP dc thats a YOU problem

Clearly that's not true since they are buffing the DC in this next expansion. It's always weird to see people say something like this when it's so mathematically easy to show QP's lag behind other similar mechanics, such as not scaling with any gear based DCs or character level.

4. Monk (handwraps) dps is good Its not top tier and it shouldnt be since in comparison to for say 11/8/1 wolf or razorclaw 18/1/1 it offers a lot of utility

Good yes, but I disagree with where we are placing them. I also find it incredibly frustrating that a pure monk must take a back seat because other multiclass wraps do better. There is certainly room for improvement in performance. They don't have to be the best of the best, but they aren't where they should be in my estimation.

5. Mrr cap shouldnt be buffed I believe that Mrr cap for Monk is sorta Like druids not wearing metal (yes I know bear tree t5) and if u want a decent Mrr u should sacrifice stuff for it (for say running the aug set instead of idk lets say SA dices) dependin on your gear ofc

The problem is applying ideas that are outside the scope of the discussion to situation. MRR is a completely new addition that only exists in DDO and is their attempt to create a more balanced defense based situation opposed to evasion and AC. So you have to look at PRR and MRR in that context. Should you have to sacrifice for something? Sure. But why in this case is it mostly monks that have to make that sacrifice? Casters get the increased cap easily from caster sets, but Monks have to go out of their way for it. There are options these days more than before, but the benefits are slim and they are scaling worse and worse as the game adds new content.

Original DnD monks are supposed to sacrifice access to wider ranges of equipment to gain potentially scaling bonuses that can be as effective or more effective. A monk gets restricted to using only specific types of weapons, no armor, and centered. The tradeoff is the benefit of powerful saves, scaling bonuses to movement speed, unarmed damage, special monk abilities, and wisdom based AC. The monk is supposed to be very defensive and powerful, not intentionally weakened for no benefit. So this idea that monks should just get shafted on this new PRR/MRR system because no one considered how the centered bonuses should factor in is a terrible situation. Evasion used to be the MRR of the day. MRR was designed to boost some of the heavier armor classes defenses without forcing them to splash for evasion. Which is fine. But in practice now that's NOT how it works. There are far more important things to avoid that you can't evade, and MRR is more important now. Monks are melee, and they should have some baseline MRR boosts somewhere in their kit that makes them less likely to die to a ray of frost. It's better than it was before, but the MRR cap issues for monk are really felt in higher tiers of content.

It's also frustrating to have so many tank based mechanics eating up space in the trees when you can't reach a reasonable MRR without devoting everything to it as well. It doesn't need much. Honestly if they would just make a 2/3 piece Monk set with 30 MRR cap or offer Monks access to the normal tank sets that get locked behind heavy armor things would be better. It's just these little small slights that get frustrating.

 

[Amideus]

Alternatively what is everyone's thoughts on the QP changes coming. Full monk level progression instead of half and assassinate back in the mix seems like a reasonable update. Certainly adds some nice scaling options for monks that go pure.

EDIT: Seems that they REMOVED the tactics bonus scaling, so it's now even WORSE. It's like they don't even care. What possible reason would there be to remove the tactics scalings from this ability? I have a worse DC now than I have ever had.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Clearly that's not true since they are buffing the DC in this next expansion. It's always weird to see people say something like this when it's so mathematically easy to show QP's lag behind other similar mechanics, such as not scaling with any gear based DCs or character level.

QP was Nerfed for those who Min maxed Monk and it was a buff for everyone who isnt
Those who trance swap and stuff got nerfed by it.....
Its now fairly easy to maintain a consistent QP of around 124ish give or take Ring boosts and other choices etc...
Before the change 130+ was doable... without devoting pieces of your gear to assasinate dcs.....
Now u gotta run either PN neck Or the Trinket for Qual assasinate cuz good Luck with 121(127 cuz no spell basically) fort in new content.... which means u lose either Raptor neck (yes I know swappable but no ty) Or ravens eye
I didnt look to deep into the new sets and frankly dont bother with em cuz Im not on a Monk rn

Edit I just read your Below Post and this basically Proves its a YOU problem because if u now have worse dcs than before but also complained that your dcs were allready terrible(this is an assumption based on "qp lag behind") this must mean your QP isnt even in the 120s Now DESPITE IT BEING EASIER NOW to achieve a viable QP
please just copy paste the Monk build of kalaydyn theres No shame in copying good builds and if not for you than for the sake of your group members....

 

[Nickodeamous]

I DM'd back and forth with Kal about his monk build. He achieves his extremely high DCs vs. swaps, cookies, etc, you name it. He was super nice and helpful about it as well. Essentially, he gets his Wisdom extremely high with swaps and then hits trance. So, yes, you can get really high DCs on QP pre U61. That being said, I ran about 6 of the new quests on R6 and had zero trouble hitting QP with the new calculation. I crafted a +7 insightful on my GoMF, and run with the tactics toggle (which gives +3 to assasinate as well). At any rate, there are ways to get you DCs high (if you invest in certain items/filigrees).

Overall, I feel ok with it now...i didnt before, but Its not as bad as I had penciled out (when I made a few small changes)

Nic

 

[Amideus]

Edit I just read your Below Post and this basically Proves its a YOU problem because if u now have worse dcs than before but also complained that your dcs were allready terrible(this is an assumption based on "qp lag behind") this must mean your QP isnt even in the 120s Now DESPITE IT BEING EASIER NOW to achieve a viable QP

I like when people don't qualify their stuff. from what I can tell the changes just flat our ruined the ability, it's not easier in any regard. It's just a different formula that's worse. I lost my Flaconry Stance, so of COURSE MY QP IS WORSE after the change. You sound like someone who thinks everyone should have full completionist and that if they don't that's their fault. That's a terrible assumption.

I'm sorry that I am not 15 years mix/maxed on my monk and I shouldn't have to be to be viable when classes like Druid can sneeze and do better.
Bond of the Fallen doesn't work on it anymore, my Battle Trance doesn't work anymore, I'm guessing none of the tactics bonuses from my past lives or my ED work anymore. I might have gained 10 DC from the monk/2 level change, but I lost a lot more from other areas. And I don't have assassinate on my items yet. But that's really just a stop gap because I've lost something like 20-30 to my DC with this change. My Falconry trance doesn't work on it, my tactics bonuses in enhancement doesn't work, my Fight Past life doesn't work, my Fallen Stance doesn't work.
The floor when you have nothing was raised, but that floor doesn't mean a whole lot at endgame. Right now I am in moderate gear assuming no reaper I have 105 DC Stunning Fist and only a 72 QP. It's not amazing, but my QP is not at a 30+ point detriment to Stunning Fist even with the change, which is WORSE THAN IT WAS. So you can keep making these insults about how it's other people's problems without knowing anything about those people and offering nothing of value to the conversation, or you can start qualifying your points. But so far your contribution to this discussion to me has been exceedingly rude and of no value.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

I like when people don't qualify their stuff. from what I can tell the changes just flat our ruined the ability, it's not easier in any regard. It's just a different formula that's worse. I lost my Flaconry Stance, so of COURSE MY QP IS WORSE after the change. You sound like someone who thinks everyone should have full completionist and that if they don't that's their fault. That's a terrible assumption.

I'm sorry that I am not 15 years mix/maxed on my monk and I shouldn't have to be to be viable when classes like Druid can sneeze and do better.
Bond of the Fallen doesn't work on it anymore, my Battle Trance doesn't work anymore, I'm guessing none of the tactics bonuses from my past lives or my ED work anymore. I might have gained 10 DC from the monk/2 level change, but I lost a lot more from other areas. And I don't have assassinate on my items yet. But that's really just a stop gap because I've lost something like 20-30 to my DC with this change. My Falconry trance doesn't work on it, my tactics bonuses in enhancement doesn't work, my Fight Past life doesn't work, my Fallen Stance doesn't work.
The floor when you have nothing was raised, but that floor doesn't mean a whole lot at endgame. Right now I am in moderate gear assuming no reaper I have 105 DC Stunning Fist and only a 72 QP. It's not amazing, but my QP is not at a 30+ point detriment to Stunning Fist even with the change, which is WORSE THAN IT WAS. So you can keep making these insults about how it's other people's problems without knowing anything about those people and offering nothing of value to the conversation, or you can start qualifying your points. But so far your contribution to this discussion to me has been exceedingly rude and of no value.

the Point is that exactly for Non uber and in hindsight for allmost everyone this is a buff ( we are talking Min maxed people Now have 127ish? and before they had like what 128-131 (depends on who u ask some people are capping or reffer to alchem+cookie boosted stuff)
and if u ask for qualify? assasinate : 17 (minor artifact dino)+7(insightful)+3(quality)+2(iod armor)+3 EPL feat+3falconry+6SD tree+4 Astral plane feat=45
so we are at 75+Wisdom Mod lets say u have 90 wisdom (40Mid) that means your qp is 115 and Mind u Monk was allways a class that punishes Low Life chars (LOL)
Dont ask me for exact Numbers on a third lifer lol but I dare to say 90 is a reasonable estimate that is maybe even a bit Low by 4 or More wisdom? and a QP of 115 Might not be your weapon of choice in r10 Isle of dread or Droam vs High fort Mobs but should work flawlessly vs archers and alike , it should work for Older r10 content aswell as in general r6-r8 content and u can boost your wisdom by 3 with push thru the Lines for 20sec (30 sec cd) and 1/3 of the time with the Monk lv 18 core giving u on average 3.5 wisdom for another 1-4 dcs. Btw i left out the choice of going 2 Piece shadowstrike for another 2 Assasinate dcs since that rips 5 MP or sumthin else Personal choice after all.... (I obviously didnt include stuff Like running 4 treachery 5 Long shadow because thats cap) and Mind u 90 Wisdom was very generous of me u can defo bump that up by another bit without PLs

I find it quiet entertaining that u say I dont qualify anything and dont contribute to the conversation while u are the same person who doesnt build any assasinate in his gear/build and then complains that an ability which relies on assasinate Now doesnt work....
I too allways go full Strength on my alchemist and am confused why my dcs are 2 digits.... and as u said u are missing 20-30 dcs on your QP but u have zero assasinate items that means u are missing 17+7+(depends)3= so 24-27 and Im no maths Phd but I believe the Numbers 24 and 27 are Inbetween 20 and 30 (I did just read your frustation about gearing for tactical dcs etc in another thread and yeah suddenly having to change gear or not using an ability u liked definetly is poo but its Not Like u dont need those tactical dcs for Stunning fist and the whole shebang anyway...

One thing I forgot tho is that the Min max peeps from above dont fully favor from this because gearing for the Qual assasinate means to give up either ravens eye set Or raptor necklace/swapping it back and forth which is annoying and Potentially they had something neat on their gems Ins *something* slot

 

[Amideus]

So apparently we have to have 90 wisdom (not sure how you're getting that without min/maxing since I am aasimar with full points into wisdom and a +8 supreme tome barely getting to 70) and now we also need to go get dino bones, let's just ignore the face some of us might not have one fully finished to begin with. We're now also going to give up those other item slots for insightful and quality assassinate? How are we doing that?

I guess if you're a perfect character with every item that's fine, but that's not easy to fit into the average gear build. Monks need a lot of stuff already to be throwing around assassinate bonuses for nothing OTHER than paper assassinate numbers.
It's a completely tone deaf response to how people actually play this game. Yes if I went hard for every single assassinate bonus I MIGHT be able to get back to my pre-nerf numbers. But what am I giving up for that? A lot. And how reasonable is it to expect me to do that? Not at all. Especially not for a middling ability that was already pretty lack luster. When it DOES go off, it's kind of mid. QP is 30 ki and an instant kill. So when it works, you don't build back any ki on the target, and when it doesn't you wasted a huge chunk of ki.

I for one have a huge issue even wanting to use stunning fist in group content because the casters instant one shot everything and I can never even really generate the ki back on stuff.

It's just clear that you don't actually know anything about the average player or the average player's experience and yet you talk as if you do, and then talk down to them. For me, I lost of ton of DC on a move that already felt bad to use, and now I have to completely redo my gear and ED into a direction that literally does nothing to help my character to try and recover that lost amount? That's just absurd.

Monk hasn't felt good at 20+ for a LONG time and this change does nothing but make that worse.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

So apparently we have to have 90 wisdom (not sure how you're getting that without min/maxing since I am aasimar with full points into wisdom and a +8 supreme tome barely getting to 70) and now we also need to go get dino bones, let's just ignore the face some of us might not have one fully finished to begin with. We're now also going to give up those other item slots for insightful and quality assassinate? How are we doing that?

I guess if you're a perfect character with every item that's fine, but that's not easy to fit into the average gear build. Monks need a lot of stuff already to be throwing around assassinate bonuses for nothing OTHER than paper assassinate numbers.
It's a completely tone deaf response to how people actually play this game. Yes if I went hard for every single assassinate bonus I MIGHT be able to get back to my pre-nerf numbers. But what am I giving up for that? A lot. And how reasonable is it to expect me to do that? Not at all. Especially not for a middling ability that was already pretty lack luster. When it DOES go off, it's kind of mid. QP is 30 ki and an instant kill. So when it works, you don't build back any ki on the target, and when it doesn't you wasted a huge chunk of ki.

I for one have a huge issue even wanting to use stunning fist in group content because the casters instant one shot everything and I can never even really generate the ki back on stuff.

It's just clear that you don't actually know anything about the average player or the average player's experience and yet you talk as if you do, and then talk down to them. For me, I lost of ton of DC on a move that already felt bad to use, and now I have to completely redo my gear and ED into a direction that literally does nothing to help my character to try and recover that lost amount? That's just absurd.

Monk hasn't felt good at 20+ for a LONG time and this change does nothing but make that worse.

Mate just for refference a "min maxed" Monk has a wisdom of around 104 give or take depends on fili choices and stuff
so I concluded 90wisdom as pretty fair
2. Yes gear tetris can be a stretch at times and the Ins and especially quality assasinate options are Limited and if u wanna critique that u are more than welcomed to, I myself dont have every single item and have to find compromises and well sometimes spend some time tinkering with ddobuilder to find a good/the best adaptation of a gearset that I can afford and Im somewhat sure that if u put in some effort u will find ways to Include atleast enhance/Ins assasinate into your build without sacrificing much I believe in you

It's just clear that you don't actually know anything about the average player or the average player's experience and yet you talk as if you do, and then talk down to them.

U would be suprised but I know How the "average player" feels (assuming yourself to be the average player is quiet interesting but lets just accept that for the sake of it) I myself had 90 dcs in u47ish Pre stat squish on sorcerer and yes I lacked past Lives and partially some raid gear but that was Only half the story I also simply had an inferior Build both feats enhancements etc as well as gearing so I know how its Like to struggle with r1 but I also know that it was simply the fact that my build wasnt as good as it could be ....

So apparently we have to have 90 wisdom (not sure how you're getting that without min/maxing since I am aasimar with full points into wisdom and a +8 supreme tome barely getting to 70) and now we also need to go get dino bones, let's just ignore the face some of us might not have one fully finished to begin with. We're now also going to give up those other item slots for insightful and quality assassinate? How are we doing that?

What content are u aiming for? because if u wanna run elite and thats it Nobody say u have to have 90 wisdom. In the end u have to be geared as good as the content u wanna run so if u dont gear up for Content difficulty X dont be suprised u gonna struggle in said X difficulty and I would dare to say that the average player runs around r5ish give or take I see a Lot of r6 LFMs in recent times (orien) and 70 wisdom just doesnt really do it for r6 ish content
Btw heres a Little wisdom breakdown from the top of the dome I wouldnt be suprised if I missed something
20 Base
+8 Levelup
+8 tome
+2 Guild buffs
+14 enhancement item
+6 Insightful
+3 Quality
+2 festive
+10 from enhancement tree? (aasimar cores+shintao capstone and wis+falc/vkf stuff so round about 10
+1 Reaper core
+4 Ocean stance
+2 Profane
+4 filis (this depends from person to person but usually everyone runs 2 2+ raid filis wisdom)
+2 Exceptional (dino weapon Or +1 from augments)
thats 86 Wisdom standing outside No buffs No reaper

Now to be fair slotting qual wisdom is a bit annoying and its usually thth raid belt so lets substract 3 Quality wisdom as well as 2 festive wisdom in case u dont have the augment/belt aswell as No dino exceptional wisdom but the augment which is quiet easy to get (20 tokens) that would still Put u at 80 Wisdom (if u call wearing enhancement and insightful wisdom Min maxing I cant help u no more...)

 

[Amideus]

U would be suprised but I know How the "average player" feels (assuming yourself to be the average player is quiet interesting but lets just accept that for the sake of it) I myself had 90 dcs in u47ish Pre stat squish on sorcerer and yes I lacked past Lives and partially some raid gear but that was Only half the story I also simply had an inferior Build both feats enhancements etc as well as gearing so I know how its Like to struggle with r1 but I also know that it was simply the fact that my build wasnt as good as it could be ....

Here we go assuming you know about other people and then focusing on builds. I promise you can't tell me what I did "wrong" because YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MY BUILD, MY CHARACTER, OR THE SITUATION. And that's the problem. Just because I am not you and disagree with you, then I must be wrong. But when I use my own character's numbers you respond with made up paper ones because you don't know what you're talking about. Paper math is great. It's another thing when it's your character.

20 Base
+8 Levelup
+8 tome
+2 Guild buffs
+14 enhancement item
+6 Insightful
+3 Quality
+2 festive
+10 from enhancement tree? (aasimar cores+shintao capstone and wis+falc/vkf stuff so round about 10
+1 Reaper core
+4 Ocean stance
+2 Profane
+4 filis (this depends from person to person but usually everyone runs 2 2+ raid filis wisdom)
+2 Exceptional (dino weapon Or +1 from augments)
thats 86 Wisdom standing outside No buffs No reaper

13 is the typical, and 14 is the higher end. That might change with the latest gear drop, but in general 13 is what more people who haven't completed all their dino are going to have.

Mine was more like
20 base
8 level
8 tome
13 enhancement
4 Ocean
2 profane
1 exceptional
2 guild
2 filis (no everyone doesn't run X whatever on filis. Because I can't control what filis drop, and the economy on them is absurd)
3 Insightful (do you actually know how few items have insightful +6 wisdom on them? Again this is why people are so out of touch. If you just go by whatever the highest stat is without bothering to actually think for a second what the average person has access to and where it's at and on what pieces, it gets really really hard to have a real conversation).
So that's around 63 and then I had +9 from enhancements. (2 aasimar, 2 shintao, 4 capstone, 2 falconry)
72 was my standing wisdom. Which is about what I would put an average player at.
So Old QP:
10+10(half monk)+31(wisdom)+4scion,+3FighterPL,+2Fallen Aasimar,+15 Trance,+3 LD Destiny,+6 Tactics Stance,+2 tactician feat
86 DC before the change.
Now it's what 15/7/3 on assassinate I think? So that's 25 bonus DC. But we lost 28 in the switch over. But we gained 10 from the base. So we have 35 vs 28 (I don't know if guild buffs or combat mastery on gear worked before, but the gear one is rather rare to begin with so not counting that)
So now if I CAN manage to get the item perfectly, I gain a slightly better topend for pure monk of 7 more DC, but ONLY if I have a perfect endgame item. Which is hard to get. So I lose access to 8 DC that is always available to me, and a battle stance that I now have to try and force a recovery on my gear to get. For an ability that was already kinda weak and only available to me at 16+. Awesome. Such a good, warranted, and feels great change. I love having my choices and grinds invalidated on a whim. Because at least before when I chose to prioritize the fighter past lives for DCs it was because I wanted to be a monk as much as possible. When I focused on the new trance past life it was the same reason. When I take the tactics feat it's for the same reason. When I spec those enhancements and make the decision on my race, it's the same reason. Things that are not RNG loot fests. Things that as a new player OR a veteran I would have access to simply by virtue of playing the game. That's the problem.

This is a change that makes no sense and actively nerfs all current monks and FORCES them to have to go find a stat that was never useful to them before to RECOVER. That's the problem. It's that instead of it being "Hey, you can get better by hunting these stats" it's "Hey, we made you worse go find this stat somewhere to fix it".

It's just a bad change. It's tone deaf, leaves less control in the player's hands, and forces people to go hunt down even more gear for a very small part of their character. It doesn't make sense. Everything else monk's use is tactics based. Now we have QP scaling off assassinate? At least for rogues there's a lot of other stats typically on those items that you wanted already. Hide, Move Silently, things that made sense for that character and that ability. Monk gear has stunning, which granted never worked with QP either, but you also could layer on all tactics. And focus your feat and enhancement focus on it. Now the natural way monks want to go doesn't affect their QP at all, and they now have to go out of their way to get a new stat on gear. It's bad. It's frustrating. And it doesn't make sense.

 

[PraetorPlato]

I think you and I don't like gimps are working with very different definitions of perfect vs. entry level endgame gear—you're thinking of a gearset with +14/+6/+3 enchantment/ins/quality mainstat as perfect, they're thinking of that as entry level (and a swap gearset with 16 sentient/15 enchantment/6 ins/3 qual/2 festive/2 profane/2 exceptional as perfect). This change benefits players at the 14/6/3 level, hurts them below that, and hurts them at the very top level.

 

[Amideus]

No it hurts all players, you're really just ignoring everything I am saying. But it's fine I am done being talked down to and dismissed about this situation.

Because I clearly didn't say 14/6/3 was perfect. What I said was 6 insightful for insightful is the highest, and it's NOT easy to come by. There's a lot that goes into farming for these gear pieces, and when you only take the highest available rather than the highest reasonable of each type you're going to be lacking.
plus profane is insanely easy to get. It's on a lot of stuff such as set bonuses and the Strahd chests.

It's really weird that you just ignored most of my points to say what you wanted to hear.

 

[Nickodeamous]

This thread has been run through the ringer. So much so, that I gave up responding due to certain threads. Forget all that. I'm here to help

Is the QP change good or bad? Honestly, it's subjective and my head was spinning on this one. At first I was like, wait a sec, what about my trance, my PLs, etc. But then I let the change hit, and honestly, its not horrible. What we need to realize is that it take a few small tweaks and we can get to the exact DC we had before (and in some cases better with gear changes).

But forget about gear changes for now. there are a few underlying changes and here is how I look at them:

The changes that no longer benefit QP DCs

1. Trance - in my example below this gives +18 to tactics, so it used to work for QP. It no longer works. BUT, you still get your stunning DCs and bonus damage, which is still very valuable
2. Fighter Past Lives - this gives +3 to tactics, so it used to work for QP. It no longer works. BUT, you still get your stunning DCs
3. Leg Dread - gives +3. used to work for QP, but not any more, but again, we still get +3 to stunning DCs
4. Tactician - gives +2. used to work for QP, but not any more, but again, we still get +2 to stunning DCs
5. Aasimar - gives +2. used to work for QP, but not any more, but again, we still get +2 to stunning DCs

The changes that can add back to QP DCs

1. Falconry (watch the center) - gives +3 DCs to assasinate
2. Shadow Dancer (Assasinate) - gives +6 DCs to assasinate
3. assasinate item - all you need is +12 to match the current QP

See below for a before and after real example (not min maxed). Hope this helps!

Nic

I'm stealing again from @Monkey_Archer but adjusting to an 80 wisdom to show the comparison (with notes):

Description	Old	Notes
Base	10​	No change
Monk Lev/2	10​
Wisdom (80)	35​	Formula: (ability score - 10)/2
Trance	18​	1/2 ability modifier (I think rounded up) still good for damage and stunning
Fighter Past Life	3​	3 past lives that still help stunning DCs
Leg Dread	3​	3 points that still add to stunning DCs
Tactician	2​	2 points that still add to stunning DCs
Ancient tactics	6​	need 3 Epic Past lives to get this toggle
Aasimar	2​	3rd core (stronmger bonds) - still helps stun DC
Astral Plane	4​	Good for tactics and Assasinate DCs
	93​

Based on these things, you would need

Description	New	Notes
Base	10​	No change
Monk Lev	20​	uses Full monk level now +10
Wisdom (80)	35​	Formula: (ability score - 10)/2
Trance	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning and damage
Fighter Past Life	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Leg Dread	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Tactician	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Ancient tactics	3​	This toggle requires 3 epic past lives (+6 tactics and +3 assasinate)
Aasimar	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Astral Plane	4​	No change from above
falconry (watch the center)	3​	requires 3 points spent in falconry
Shadow dancer (assasinate)	6​	requires 4 points spent in Shadow Dancer
subtotal	81​
Assasinate item need to match old	12​	Only thing needed to match QP DC
Total (matches original)	93​

 

[I dont Like gimps]

No it hurts all players, you're really just ignoring everything I am saying. But it's fine I am done being talked down to and dismissed about this situation.

Because I clearly didn't say 14/6/3 was perfect. What I said was 6 insightful for insightful is the highest, and it's NOT easy to come by. There's a lot that goes into farming for these gear pieces, and when you only take the highest available rather than the highest reasonable of each type you're going to be lacking.
plus profane is insanely easy to get. It's on a lot of stuff such as set bonuses and the Strahd chests.

It's really weird that you just ignored most of my points to say what you wanted to hear.

Legendary ravens sight ..... Or just running an ins wisdom augment which u can buy for rems every hunter event or for 200 a Pop in the store...

Here we go assuming you know about other people and then focusing on builds. I promise you can't tell me what I did "wrong" because YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MY BUILD, MY CHARACTER, OR THE SITUATION. And that's the problem. Just because I am not you and disagree with you, then I must be wrong. But when I use my own character's numbers you respond with made up paper ones because you don't know what you're talking about. Paper math is great. It's another thing when it's your character.

yes I dont Know about your whole situation but afterall seeing your breakdown welll cant Help it I guess....
Btw raid wisdom filis are available for threads.....

I just tried to throw together a gearset that has Zero raid items and relies on a feytwisted belt and dino Minor artifact ring(25 Mats of each is Like about One saga run for the wisdom 15 augment) as the "Non blue" items but uhh Im definetly Not gonna build around medium reinforced fist item
and oh my I can feel your struggles and its anything but perfect but u can defo slot Assasinate/ins assasinate aswell as 6 wisdom without really sacrificing defenses or offenses (the build has Qual deadly deadly armor piercing and every Kind of seeker/deception/doublestrike stunning so Unless Im missing something... especially since they fixed Insightful gear stacking with trance) and Mind u i didnt Use a SINGLE augment and u could definetly improve that gearset by using some augments.... because that would also open up other gearing possibilities but I wanted to make it as "farm the items from quest and u are fine" as possible

And Please dont reffer to my Numbers as "made up paper numbers" or atleast dont call they "Made up" 1. How exactly are they made up if I and others run them???? paper numbers? Not exactly sure what u mean by that but if this means Min maxing fair call them that . if this means going to unreasonable lengths to achieve those Numbers No.....
Like when I say I have 100ish Wisdom this doesnt mean I completely gut my dmg by going 16 Wisdom as filis and Not having any proper offenses whatsoever (lol) so Like if somebody tells u they have 116 Wisdom or so standing on a Monk No buffs No nothing yeeeah thats cap or rather thats a paper number...

I dont know anything about your build your character your situation and I frankly dont care if u have a wisdom of 30 or 200 but dont complain about changes just because they affect u PERSONALLY and then hide behind "im the average player" when to me personally that doesnt seem to be the case ..... Based on my experience running reaper.... and dont u worry I myself am Not allways Min maxed Nor are the people in the groups I join.... some peoples builds are inferior to yours yet I notice a large amount of people that arent min maxing but have a superior build .....
Just please let me repeat this : there are ways to make it work... u dont take those ways so Dont complain about it Not working.....

https://imgur.com/a/fvEfxFk

 

[Spook]

This thread has been run through the ringer. So much so, that I gave up responding due to certain threads. Forget all that. I'm here to help

Is the QP change good or bad? Honestly, it's subjective and my head was spinning on this one. At first I was like, wait a sec, what about my trance, my PLs, etc. But then I let the change hit, and honestly, its not horrible. What we need to realize is that it take a few small tweaks and we can get to the exact DC we had before (and in some cases better with gear changes).

But forget about gear changes for now. there are a few underlying changes and here is how I look at them:

The changes that no longer benefit QP DCs

1. Trance - in my example below this gives +18 to tactics, so it used to work for QP. It no longer works. BUT, you still get your stunning DCs and bonus damage, which is still very valuable
2. Fighter Past Lives - this gives +3 to tactics, so it used to work for QP. It no longer works. BUT, you still get your stunning DCs
3. Leg Dread - gives +3. used to work for QP, but not any more, but again, we still get +3 to stunning DCs
4. Tactician - gives +2. used to work for QP, but not any more, but again, we still get +2 to stunning DCs
5. Aasimar - gives +2. used to work for QP, but not any more, but again, we still get +2 to stunning DCs

The changes that can add back to QP DCs

1. Falconry (watch the center) - gives +3 DCs to assasinate
2. Shadow Dancer (Assasinate) - gives +6 DCs to assasinate
3. assasinate item - all you need is +12 to match the current QP

See below for a before and after real example (not min maxed). Hope this helps!

Nic

I'm stealing again from @Monkey_Archer but adjusting to an 80 wisdom to show the comparison (with notes):

Description	Old	Notes
Base	10​	No change
Monk Lev/2	10​
Wisdom (80)	35​	Formula: (ability score - 10)/2
Trance	18​	1/2 ability modifier (I think rounded up) still good for damage and stunning
Fighter Past Life	3​	3 past lives that still help stunning DCs
Leg Dread	3​	3 points that still add to stunning DCs
Tactician	2​	2 points that still add to stunning DCs
Ancient tactics	6​	need 3 Epic Past lives to get this toggle
Aasimar	2​	3rd core (stronmger bonds) - still helps stun DC
Astral Plane	4​	Good for tactics and Assasinate DCs
	93​

Based on these things, you would need

Description	New	Notes
Base	10​	No change
Monk Lev	20​	uses Full monk level now +10
Wisdom (80)	35​	Formula: (ability score - 10)/2
Trance	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning and damage
Fighter Past Life	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Leg Dread	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Tactician	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Ancient tactics	3​	This toggle requires 3 epic past lives (+6 tactics and +3 assasinate)
Aasimar	0​	no longer helps QP, but based on above, still helps stunning
Astral Plane	4​	No change from above
falconry (watch the center)	3​	requires 3 points spent in falconry
Shadow dancer (assasinate)	6​	requires 4 points spent in Shadow Dancer
subtotal	81​
Assasinate item need to match old	12​	Only thing needed to match QP DC
Total (matches original)	93​

Missing too many things here I will list a few:
Reaper tactics
Dojo
Meditation of war (making sun stance a lot less desirable a choice)
Also remember that wisdom for trance is snap shotted so can use temporary boosts to get it higher eg action boosts with ld, touch of the void dragon even before we talk about trance swaps

Given the current state of the game monks will be running R10 long before they can reach R10 DCs they may as well not even put QP on their bar.

 

[Nickodeamous]

Missing too many things here I will list a few:
Reaper tactics
Dojo
Meditation of war (making sun stance a lot less desirable a choice)
Also remember that wisdom for trance is snap shotted so can use temporary boosts to get it higher eg action boosts with ld, touch of the void dragon even before we talk about trance swaps

Given the current state of the game monks will be running R10 long before they can reach R10 DCs they may as well not even put QP on their bar.

Yeah this is a very basic view only. I tried to just show how you could get the same DC with the new formula as purely an example with a low geared out, low past life monk.

All of your points make sense to me as I do the same thing to boost my DCs. I do agree that monks will he thrown into R10s far before they can get DCs needed as well. I guess I should explained that more.