How does Wizards kill bosses and other monsters that can't be killed by insta kill?

[woq]

In my opinion r10 (or high skull) soloing isn't a good basis for defining any class as being in a good place or not. Sure, some builds/classes excel at it, but it's a MMO and things should be defined by being a solid member of group.

The thing I was hoping to find from this thread was more discussion on what would/does make wizards excel as a member of the group in high skull content over another similarly geared/past lived sorc, druid or warlock?

I think a lot of the qualms high reaper wizards seem to have based on chats in parties etc is that wizards lack their niche once character power and difficulty reaches a certain level. In first life challenges and for new characters wizards seem not bad but after you're established they seem to lose their luster and I thought there'd be more on that here.

I know essentially nothing about nonhealer nonmelees so that's why I hoped to get more indepth discussion on relative power and usefulness of casters here.

 

[Guntango]

The problem, as I see it (and frankly, I don't main true casters, I despise the playstyle) is SSG has built themselves into a corner.

If they make mobs That generalist casters can beat in a semi-reasonable amount of time, specialist casters of the right damage type can vuln and obliterate them in seconds.

I have some thoughts on how to possibly mitigate the issue to a degree, but as I said, I don't main casters so I won't step on any toes.

All ideas are welcome.

 

[woq]

The problem, as I see it (and frankly, I don't main true casters, I despise the playstyle) is SSG has built themselves into a corner.

If they make mobs That generalist casters can beat in a semi-reasonable amount of time, specialist casters of the right damage type can vuln and obliterate them in seconds.

I have some thoughts on how to possibly mitigate the issue to a degree, but as I said, I don't main casters so I won't step on any toes.

Specialists should be rewarded for focusing on content where they excel. That is their purpose to exist. This is not a bad thing.

Edit: wait, maybe I misunderstood. Is this a comment in favour of generalists or specialists if SSG has built themselves in a corner? To me it seems that specialists in instakilling and cc have been overthrown by damage casters because they reach high enough power to be able to dabble in those things while focusing on damage - that is, outside challenges like first life stuff where specialisation is still rewarded.

 

[Lazuli]

This I can support. That applies to a lot more than just the wizard class, too. SSG is in dire need of diversifying their cookie-cutter, copy/paste content design paradigms.

I just can't support giving wizards R10 solo raw DPS capability. They're too good at other aspects of the game to also have that much raw DPS (imo).

I will say however that farming out immunity bypass to multiple caster DPS classes was and still is a terrible design decision in general. Doing that creates its own set of unneccessary content design challenges and disproportionately favors certain classes/build types over others.

It's a similar problem to how SSG fills most of the areas in a dungeon with hordes of low hp trash mobs instead of a mix of tougher single mobs in some places and hordes of trash mobs in others. That paradigm heavily favors low damage AoE builds over everything else for TRing and leveling speed.

If you notice, I've been asking for this for years, because the devs have been with this lazy design for years. I have opposed giving a bypass to the wizard since I consider that it homogenizes the classes too much and even goes against the very core of the class: the wizard is the generalist caster par excellence.

And yes, this design change should not only be reflected in the case of the wizard, but in other classes as well. Here is being talked about wizard (see the subforum!), and for that I have talked about wizard, but in other threads I have asked for it for other classes and other areas of the game. In fact, I much preferred the old design of doing things by hand. The love for standardization of the current devs has undoubtedly made their work easier, but it has made the game worse in many ways, and has significantly impoverished it.

But I'm sorry to disappoint you, ALL classes have the ability to solo at R10. I still haven't come across a single one that doesn't have it. That ship has long since left port. But that is no excuse for classes that are significantly behind not to receive help, after all nerfs come quickly when one seems to stand out a little.

Worse than you say, the quest design is the overabundance of mobs of a type with heavy immunities. In the old days, even in thematic quests there was a mix of mobs (e.g., quests with a diabolical theme there were many more mobs than devils), but currently the devs do not blink when it comes to doing basically monothematic quests in mobs.

 

[Lazuli]

In my opinion r10 (or high skull) soloing isn't a good basis for defining any class as being in a good place or not. Sure, some builds/classes excel at it, but it's a MMO and things should be defined by being a solid member of group.

I agree, r10 alone should not be the pivot of the discussion. My point from the beginning is that the wizard's dps is too low and should be improved a little. Not at the level of other casters, but as I said in another topic yesterday, between 0 and 100 there are intermediate numbers. After that, people have gone into a closed mindset about only high reaper and so on.

And the reason why every class needs decent dps (not great, but decent), is that nowadays dps is necessary. SSG has devalued all non-DPS roles in different ways. And dps is needed to finish any quest, it's the only thing that works. Until SSG changes its design (we all know they won't), asking that all classes have decent dps, with others having better dps because that's their function, is fair.

 

[Lazuli]

The thing I was hoping to find from this thread was more discussion on what would/does make wizards excel as a member of the group in high skull content over another similarly geared/past lived sorc, druid or warlock?

I think a lot of the qualms high reaper wizards seem to have based on chats in parties etc is that wizards lack their niche once character power and difficulty reaches a certain level. In first life challenges and for new characters wizards seem not bad but after you're established they seem to lose their luster and I thought there'd be more on that here.

Yes, basically this is the problem. Wizards currently lack a defined niche. As I said before, a wizard with mediocre first life equipment has a certain DC advantage over the sorc in a DC caster build, but gear, past lifes, and reaper points quickly erase that advantage. Once the sorc has reached a sufficient DC, it is a better DC caster than the wizard itself thanks to its fast casting and superior pool of spell points. It's the reason why in raids you see many more DC sorcs than wizards.

The second reason why the wizard lacks its own niche is that SSG has greatly devalued everything that is not dps. By making a design that excessively favors damage over everything else, it devalues classes that are not capable of good dps. And since SSG is not going to change the design, it is not strange that wizard players are no longer satisfied with having such low dps.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Yes, basically this is the problem. Wizards currently lack a defined niche. As I said before, a wizard with mediocre first life equipment has a certain DC advantage over the sorc in a DC caster build, but gear, past lifes, and reaper points quickly erase that advantage. Once the sorc has reached a sufficient DC, it is a better DC caster than the wizard itself thanks to its fast casting and superior pool of spell points. It's the reason why in raids you see many more DC sorcs than wizards.

The second reason why the wizard lacks its own niche is that SSG has greatly devalued everything that is not dps. By making a design that excessively favors damage over everything else, it devalues classes that are not capable of good dps. And since SSG is not going to change the design, it is not strange that wizard players are no longer satisfied with having such low dps.

#raisequestDCs2024 (I think raising instant-kill dcs by 5-10 would be a decent fix to this)

 

[RobShow]

#raisequestDCs2024 (I think raising instant-kill dcs by 5-10 would be a decent fix to this)

The problem is not in the amount of DC, that you can achieve over time. The problem is the amount of MOBS immune to insta kill

 

[Kimbere]

But I'm sorry to disappoint you, ALL classes have the ability to solo at R10. I still haven't come across a single one that doesn't have it. That ship has long since left port.

I'm aware a very small percentage of the top players can solo R10 with pretty much any class icon if they devote enough time and resources to it. It's still the exception, not the rule though. Discussions and debates should generally be held around general rule, not the exception.

Since wizards *can* solo R10s, asking for more DPS at this point goes way beyond the claimed "we just want reasonable DPS". Soloing R10s IS reasonable DPS. Wanting more is just being greedy.

The rest, we agree on.

 

[Lazuli]

#raisequestDCs2024 (I think raising instant-kill dcs by 5-10 would be a decent fix to this)

No, that would only hurt new players who don't have the resources to raise those DCs. Nor does it solve the fact that SSG's design favors damage above all.

 

[Lazuli]

I'm aware a very small percentage of the top players can solo R10 with pretty much any class icon if they devote enough time and resources to it. It's still the exception, not the rule though. Discussions and debates should generally be held around general rule, not the exception.

Since wizards *can* solo R10s, asking for more DPS at this point goes way beyond the claimed "we just want reasonable DPS". Soloing R10s IS reasonable DPS. Wanting more is just being greedy.

The rest, we agree on.

No, it is not greedy, the effort and time it requires is disproportionate to the other classes.

Seriously, Kimbere, as long as SSG doesn't change their design where damage is the only thing that works universally, these requests are going to continue. You just have to look at the recent raids. What are they? DPS contests, plain and simple. Going to them with a DC caster is being masochistic.

 

[Kimbere]

The second reason why the wizard lacks its own niche is that SSG has greatly devalued everything that is not dps. By making a design that excessively favors damage over everything else, it devalues classes that are not capable of good dps. And since SSG is not going to change the design, it is not strange that wizard players are no longer satisfied with having such low dps.

This is the real crux of the issue. The thing is, this problem isn't unique to wizards.

SSG has devalued non-DPS abilities for ALL classes. Giving wizards more DPS won't fix that problem, it will just temporarily bandaid the symptoms. It won't fix the problem for any other classes and would just pigeonhole them even further into the MOAR DPS design.

Advocate instead for more diverse, better content design. That would help the entire game, not just one class.

 

[Lazuli]

This is the real crux of the issue. The thing is, this problem isn't unique to wizards.

SSG has devalued non-DPS abilities for ALL classes. Giving wizards more DPS won't fix that problem, it will just temporarily bandaid the symptoms. It won't fix the problem for any other classes and would just pigeonhole them even further into the MOAR DPS design.

Advocate instead for more diverse, better content design. That would help the entire game, not just one class.

Oh, Kimbere, I've been asking SSG for years not to focus their design on dps. It's a lost battle, they have no intention of doing it. In fact, they are increasingly focusing their design on that. Every time they put everything into the same template and homogenize it more. I once got banned for saying I hated this standardization that they love so much.

I have given up, that design change will never come.

And I don't see why giving a little more dps to the wizard is bad or will make other classes look bad. It is about improving his situation, no one has asked to be put in first line. Before you said that it was okay if the wizard has 20% less dps than the sorc. And yes, it would be more than fine if I only had that 20% less. Or 30%. But it still has less than that.

It can be improved a little without anyone having to put their hands on their head, without devaluing the other classes or anything.

And I'll tell you one thing. Without modifying the class itself, if they simply give it the opportunity to have equal equipment for the entire spellbook equal to what A+ casters have for the few elements they need, and give it an ED mantle designed for a caster generalist... nothing more would be needed.

It's embarrassing how the entire current design is focused on casters who only need to use one element.

 

[Lazuli]

The problem, as I see it (and frankly, I don't main true casters, I despise the playstyle) is SSG has built themselves into a corner.

If they make mobs That generalist casters can beat in a semi-reasonable amount of time, specialist casters of the right damage type can vuln and obliterate them in seconds.

I have some thoughts on how to possibly mitigate the issue to a degree, but as I said, I don't main casters so I won't step on any toes.

I do not see why. Sorcs, druids and such are a bit lower in DC than the wizard but can achieve a good DC without much effort.

I don't see why the wizard can't have a bit lower damage than those classes, but decent, and not as far off as it is now. His dps would be lower, so I don't see how that jeopardizes the quests. And if A+ casters can reach, and some of them even surpass, the wizard as a DC caster, who is going to feel threatened because the wizard closes the distance with dps?

 

[PraetorPlato]

No, that would only hurt new players who don't have the resources to raise those DCs. Nor does it solve the fact that SSG's design favors damage above all.

It would give wizard a niche and make DC sorc less dominant. Right now, DC sorc is an absurdly dominant build in r10s-if there’s a dc sorc in the party, I expect all the other dps in the party to get maybe half of their kills combined if they’re being sloppy and/or focusing on holding over instant killing. Thats kind of ok, because there are some things that aren’t instant killable, but if that number was reduced, instant kill DCs 110% need to go up substantially. It’s also honestly an issue right now-it’s not super fun to play “run behind the DC caster with better mobility than you and occasionally whack a held champ or two to death, then DPS the boss for 20 seconds”. Wizard could absolutely do the same thing, they’re just 5% less optimal for it, so not the flavor of the month, but DCs right now are too easy to hit for DC casting to be buffed any more than it already is.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Oh, Kimbere, I've been asking SSG for years not to focus their design on dps. It's a lost battle, they have no intention of doing it. In fact, they are increasingly focusing their design on that. Every time they put everything into the same template and homogenize it more. I once got banned for saying I hated this standardization that they love so much.

I don’t know what it would mean for SSG to focus less on DPS without DPS becoming completely useless in group questing.

 

[Lazuli]

It would give wizard a niche and make DC sorc less dominant. Right now, DC sorc is an absurdly dominant build in r10s-if there’s a dc sorc in the party, I expect all the other dps in the party to get maybe half of their kills combined if they’re being sloppy and/or focusing on holding over instant killing. Thats kind of ok, because there are some things that aren’t instant killable, but if that number was reduced, instant kill DCs 110% need to go up substantially. It’s also honestly an issue right now-it’s not super fun to play “run behind the DC caster with better mobility than you and occasionally whack a held champ or two to death, then DPS the boss for 20 seconds”. Wizard could absolutely do the same thing, they’re just 5% less optimal for it, so not the flavor of the month, but DCs right now are too easy to hit for DC casting to be buffed any more than it already is.

No, as I say, increasing the DCs is not going to solve the wizard's problem, because the difference between classes is not great and it will only create problems for new players, who already have quite a difficult time starting in this game.

There is also the problem of the enormous amount of mobs that cannot be instakilled and often not even CC'ed. Why are bosses immune to everything other than dps? If debuff spells worked on them (I'm not going to say instankills, but debuffs), wizard would have a different way of dealing with them than the other casters' dps. But no, bosses are immune to everything that is not damage, and of the few effects to which they are sensitive, they are not spells, but are options in EDs or gear that everyone has access to.

Do Devs want to give more relevance to the wizard? The they should update the useless spells, and let them affect bosses debuffing them. Then having more slots than the sorc will start to make sense.

There are many things where the current design fails. Why are all current raids mere dps tests? Why don't they give space to other roles in them?

 

[PraetorPlato]

Why are bosses immune to everything other than dps? If debuff spells worked on them (I'm not going to say instankills, but debuffs), wizard would have a different way of dealing with them than the other casters' dps. But no, bosses are immune to everything that is not damage, and of the few effects to which they are sensitive, they are not spells, but are options in EDs or gear that everyone has access t

To solve the problem I’m talking about: if you give DC casters a way to deal with bosses, your poor DPS chars will do literally nothing interesting all quest. The substantial of mobs already get instant gibbed or held in place to be mindlessly killed, red names are the only exciting moments for DPS.

Let alone tanks-making red names subject to meaningful CC or debuffs just means tanks lose their already limited role in quests.

Raid-wise, FoM is one of the raids that benefits most from a solid DC player, hunt and dryad love DC casters, etc. Skellies is a slog for casters, I’ll admit.

 

[Lazuli]

I don’t know what it would mean for SSG to focus less on DPS without DPS becoming completely useless in group questing.

That's completely extreme. Why is it that every time is asked not to focus so much on one thing, people go to the completely opposite extreme?

It is not about invalidating the dps. It is about not being the only universal solution to all the challenges of the game. It is about there being mobs that are easier to deal with through Dc casting than with damage, just as there are and will be mobs immune to IK and/or CC. The idea is that the raids are more similar to the old ones than the modern ones, which are basically bosses inflated in hps and nothing more. Variety. Justice for a variety of playstyles.

 

[PraetorPlato]

That's completely extreme. Why is it that every time is asked not to focus so much on one thing, people go to the completely opposite extreme?

It is not about invalidating the dps. It is about not being the only universal solution to all the challenges of the game. It is about there being mobs that are easier to deal with through Dc casting than with damage, just as there are and will be mobs immune to IK and/or CC. The idea is that the raids are more similar to the old ones than the modern ones, which are basically bosses inflated in hps and nothing more. Variety. Justice for a variety of playstyles.

80% of mobs already are easier to deal with DC casting than damage?