How would you buff/rework monks?

[Vox]

I'm playing Epic Elite quests in Keep on the Borderlands at level 22 with 110 AC, which is quite good for that level, and I never avoid a hit outside of dodge. Something is definitely wrong with the formula these days.

With a few more past lives & gear you'll be higher than that before you get to heroic gianthold

 

[Amideus]

With a few more past lives & gear you'll be higher than that before you get to heroic gianthold

I already have past lives and gear, that's not the point. The point is that 110 AC at level 22 is around a 75% avoidance chance according to their display. And in EE that translates to a 0% chance. I shouldn't have to have epic completionist and dedicate myself entirely to AC in order for it to have greater than a 0% chance to work, considering that was the entire point of the AC change in the first place.

 

[Ramahtha]

Add a third quality to the monk philosophy, joining the two philosophies with the third.

 

[Ramahtha]

Add a third quality to the monk philosophy, joining the two philosophies with the third.

Perfect balance requires a triangle; philosophy is not linear.

 

[Arkat]

Quivering Palm needs usable DCs (allow us to add sundering bonuses back into the DC calculations again) and EiN needs to affect more than just 6 mobs. 10 mobs would be good, but I'd settle for 8.

I'm good with where Monks are with regards to PRR and also with the MRR cap. It's not that difficult to get to a 200 PRR and a 125 MRR (130 MRR for Ninja Spies).

 

[Eme]

Fists of light healing shield is still broken and not working with double strike, as it should, it considers it a single strike. It's been broken since the double strike change and halves light monks main healing ability: one of the biggest bug/nerfs currently in the game.

&
finishers are temperamental and often vanish with lag.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

So since my message got deleted for whatever reason Im simply gonna try to rephrase it More gentlly

1. shuri Monk is supposed to be worse than a ranger thrower for say when it comes to dps Simply because hes much more survivable due to being supa fast (Imma ignore Rubbins 14/6 build here)
2. Monk doesnt need More debuffs its allready a great utility class
3. if u dont manage a good QP dc thats a YOU problem
4. Monk (handwraps) dps is good Its not top tier and it shouldnt be since in comparison to for say 11/8/1 wolf or razorclaw 18/1/1 it offers a lot of utility
5. Mrr cap shouldnt be buffed I believe that Mrr cap for Monk is sorta Like druids not wearing metal (yes I know bear tree t5) and if u want a decent Mrr u should sacrifice stuff for it (for say running the aug set instead of idk lets say SA dices) dependin on your gear ofc

 

[Bjond]

1. shuri Monk is supposed to be worse
2. Monk doesnt need More debuffs
3. if u dont manage a good QP dc thats a YOU problem
4. Monk (handwraps) dps is good
5. Mrr cap shouldnt be buffed

The overall problem is (imho) that monk is both a "pure" AND an "expert only" class and if you're expert enough to milk a monk, you are expert enough to do MUCH better with a multiclass, which leaves pure monk as a sad little trap for newbies.

Pure monk should work pretty well for newbies, but it doesn't. A big reason is late-bloomer syndrome in heroic -- far too much is delayed until cap when it should be L12 core at latest or somewhere in the tiers (profile in particular) so you can actually use it in heroic.

The MRR cap issue is (imho) a generic issue and should be removed for all armor. Cap removal won't change MRR on light builds by much (it's pretty hard to push past 100 and stay dps-focused). It will put cloth on par with Light, though, and it badly needs that.

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BTW, throwers are an abomination before god (which is likely partly why I play them ).

 

[I dont Like gimps]

The overall problem is (imho) that monk is both a "pure" AND an "expert only" class and if you're expert enough to milk a monk, you are expert enough to do MUCH better with a multiclass, which leaves pure monk as a sad little trap for newbies.

Pure monk should work pretty well for newbies, but it doesn't. A big reason is late-bloomer syndrome in heroic -- far too much is delayed until cap when it should be L12 core at latest or somewhere in the tiers (profile in particular) so you can actually use it in heroic.

The MRR cap issue is (imho) a generic issue and should be removed for all armor. Cap removal won't change MRR on light builds by much (it's pretty hard to push past 100 and stay dps-focused). It will put cloth on par with Light, though, and it badly needs that.

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BTW, throwers are an abomination before god (which is likely partly why I play them ).

Please elaborate On how Pure Monk is a trap Lmao
14/6 and perhabs 12/6/2 are definetly better DPS wise than 20Monk shuri but they dont offer the same survivability
For Pure Raid dps defo 14/6 but if u just wanna r10 20Monk is great and soo Much easier to pull off

 

[Fisto Mk I]

14/6 and perhabs 12/6/2 are definetly better DPS wise than 20Monk shuri but they dont offer the same survivability

Last time i check Carpone(Ying) 17 ranged builds, pure 20 monk shuri was the best. Of course, it's all old and mebbe obsolete builds, but i just don't see more fresh.

 

[Nickodeamous]

well, I guess we are getting some "changes" this week. I am still not sure whether the QP change is actually better for me or worse. As for the damage buffs...small, but better than nothin. lol

 

[Contessor]

Hey all,

Here are my thoughts on Monk updates. There is some room for improvement for sure.

1. Buff Quivering palm DC. it was disproportionately hit during the stat squish. Change it from (DC 10 + monk level/2 + Wisdom modifier) to (DC 10 + monk level + Wisdom modifier)
2. Bring back our weapon damage from heroics. Add back the 2.5W that was taken away. Handwrap monks need this in heroics.
3. add +10-20 MRR cap in the capstone. It ain't much for anybody else, but +10-20 MRR cap for a monk is huge
4. Fix the finishing moves so they don't go away when you hit an element that doesn't match
   1. Make Finishers 25 ki without having to build them...so instant finishers
5. add some whirlwind cleaves in shintao. (like SF)
6. strikethrough with kicks (see cleaves)...why not, I mean we get strikethrough with staffs...so...what's the difference?
7. monks should be stealthy, and thus should have more SA die in the tree
8. give us glowing fists already!!!
9. Nunchucks

Thanks!
Nico

Disagree with the +W from heroic enhancements. That is what was exploited before. If the handwraps themselves were to be given an increase in 2W on anything level 30+, that would be a better move in my opinion. This would also help razorclaw handwraps (still garbage) and sacred fist handwraps at end game.

 

[Nickodeamous]

Disagree with the +W from heroic enhancements. That is what was exploited before. If the handwraps themselves were to be given an increase in 2W on anything level 30+, that would be a better move in my opinion. This would also help razorclaw handwraps (still garbage) and sacred fist handwraps at end game.

howdy! I would def take +2w at end game on handwraps! (would benefit, like you mention, RC and SF). I wasn't aware that the 2.5w that monks got during the leveling process was exploited. How do you mean? I am fairly certain it was that way for years and was only changed after Duality came out (which in turn was nerfed (a needed nerf tbh)). I totally agree with you on the w buff...just not sure why it matters if it is within the leveling process or at end game on the wraps themselves.

Nic

 

[ACJ97F]

Canon Monk damage in Heroic was better than the "new" wraps, which were (on average) worse than Heroic class progression. When they
snafu'd Monks to make up for a miscalculation (they claimed 10% too much DPS) with one set of raid wraps, that was a Dave-level move.

The change to EIN was equally silly. The timer wasn't bad, but nerfing the "AOE" part made it borderline useless, compared to only needing
one caster who can snuff out more mobs, faster, with less restrictions ... or anyone with Mass-anything being a valid Monk replacement.

--------------------------------------

Not saying Monks didn't need some adjusting, but DOWN isn't the direction they were really hoping for.

 

[Contessor]

howdy! I would def take +2w at end game on handwraps! (would benefit, like you mention, RC and SF). I wasn't aware that the 2.5w that monks got during the leveling process was exploited. How do you mean? I am fairly certain it was that way for years and was only changed after Duality came out (which in turn was nerfed (a needed nerf tbh)). I totally agree with you on the w buff...just not sure why it matters if it is within the leveling process or at end game on the wraps themselves.

Nic

It had to do with the way the +W from the class feat interacted. Basically as a handwrap monk, you could gain extra +W, even beyond what was intended, by doing certain things.

 

[Nickodeamous]

It had to do with the way the +W from the class feat interacted. Basically as a handwrap monk, you could gain extra +W, even beyond what was intended, by doing certain things.

Gotcha. I guess I didn't know about whatever that was back then. lol thanks for the info!

Oh well, I am down for an added w or 2 to help bring all handwrap users up a bit at endgame!

 

[Contessor]

Gotcha. I guess I didn't know about whatever that was back then. lol thanks for the info!

Oh well, I am down for an added w or 2 to help bring all handwrap users up a bit at endgame!

Yeah the issue with monks was that they always benefitted from something unique. Once they made handwraps have a base damage like other weapons, monks no longer have a unique damage profile anymore. But gaining +3-4 more W was not the answer, it was definitely top sustainable DPS at the time. Now handwraps are bottom tier. The nerf was a bit too far or misplaced. Maybe if they bring ToD rings back when (or if) they make those legendary and give handwraps another unique damage die that’s worthwhile.

 

[Bjond]

Please elaborate On how Pure Monk is a trap

Last time i check Carpone(Ying) 17 ranged builds, pure 20 monk shuri was the best

The U53 ranged list from Carpone didn't include pure shuri, likely because the DPS is too low to bother listing (lower than INQ); all the shuri builds in the U53 list are 14 monk at most. HE+Sniper is simply that good.

If your ranged build lacks sniper shot, you might as well play INQ and accept that your DPS is at best 50% of a top build.

(NB! for newbies reading that's only at cap with max gear; sub-cap INQ is waaay out in front. Shuri/throw in particular is so bad sub-cap you might as well give up and level as something else then swap to throw at cap)

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IMHO, it doesn't matter what kind of monk you're making: throw, bow, twf, stick, or fist, muticlass using the same weapon will beat the dps, beat the utility, beat PRR & MRR, and even have almost as much dodge and runspeed.

Quickest easiest "fix" for pure is to update the profiles; ie. at least 16x3 by level 12 for all styles, though I'd do 15x3 to make up for the horrific MRR cap. Even @ 15x3, it will still be worse than multi, but that's as it should be. It just won't be "gah this sucks" worse than multi.

Better fix? Get creative and figure out how to do something that actually feels monk-like -- long leaping wire-fu abilities would be fun. Extend the radius of WWA for an extra nice helicopter monk. IMHO, all three class trees kinda need major tune-ups with an eye towards being at least similar in power to multiclass builds.

 

[l_remmie]

I want the elemental moves to do something good. It's actually quite fun to do combo moves like in a fighting game. Make those finishing moves act like ki spells.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

The U53 ranged list from Carpone didn't include pure shuri, likely because the DPS is too low to bother listing (lower than INQ); all the shuri builds in the U53 list are 14 monk at most. HE+Sniper is simply that good.

If your ranged build lacks sniper shot, you might as well play INQ and accept that your DPS is at best 50% of a top build.

(NB! for newbies reading that's only at cap with max gear; sub-cap INQ is waaay out in front. Shuri/throw in particular is so bad sub-cap you might as well give up and level as something else then swap to throw at cap)

---

IMHO, it doesn't matter what kind of monk you're making: throw, bow, twf, stick, or fist, muticlass using the same weapon will beat the dps, beat the utility, beat PRR & MRR, and even have almost as much dodge and runspeed.

Quickest easiest "fix" for pure is to update the profiles; ie. at least 16x3 by level 12 for all styles, though I'd do 15x3 to make up for the horrific MRR cap. Even @ 15x3, it will still be worse than multi, but that's as it should be. It just won't be "gah this sucks" worse than multi.

Better fix? Get creative and figure out how to do something that actually feels monk-like -- long leaping wire-fu abilities would be fun. Extend the radius of WWA for an extra nice helicopter monk. IMHO, all three class trees kinda need major tune-ups with an eye towards being at least similar in power to multiclass builds.

so you are basically quoting authorities and Interpretate that Monk is bad because that authority didnt publish OR didnt test a build? do I get this right? Im not debating that 14/6 or and probably 12/6/2 (this one suffers from reaper nerf to imbue) are better dps but u are presenting 20Monk to be bad dps when its Not ..... idk your times in Black and blue r10 solo but if a Monk thrower has the same time as an alchemist I dont think they have terrible dps (I of course dont Know How Lucky or unlucky the alch or the Monk were ) but I'd dare to say 30Min is a good time lol
Beside the Point that 20Monk thrower hits close to Melee Hp with ease.... and has 10% more movespeed than 12/14 Monk splits and on ranged 10% Movespeed is sorta Like an extra 100 Prr