Kali's Barbarian Ravager THF CON Melee DPS build

[Hobgoblin]

ya thats normal

melee kinda feels weak in epics til around 23-26

and this particular build will def do it as it is more balanced not all out dps

 

[Kalibano]

I feel so weak around level 22 right now. Like... My epic strike caps around 1000 dmg, regular hits are a few hundred. Is that normal? On Reaper 1. Am I just expecting too much or am I building wrong or something. I know I'm not build complete, but I still feel crazy weak.

Hey there,

It's hard commenting on specific numbers for a couple of key reasons:
> because I don't keep records of such damage numbers, at a wide range of different levels, and for every single build I make
> but most importantly because there are so many variables to consider:

• are you wearing optimised gear (inc set bonuses, and potentially Cannith crafting DPS bonuses that are harder to find in gear)?
• do you update gear every few levels (e.g. every 4 levels)?
• do you have a lot of past lives?
• do you have a lot of extra points invested in the racial tree, gained via racial past lives? For this build in particular, this would free up a lot of extra action points to invest in other heroic/Universal trees
• are you using a good named weapon, or just random loot?
• do you have a fully upgraded sentience gem in your low epic weapon with optimised DPS filigrees?
• do you have a lot of reaper points?
• are you making the most of the Fury of the Wild DPS combo: Adrenaline followed immediately by the Epic strike? Or are you using the Epic strike often on its own?

> just comparing your numbers with those of others who might have/do all of the above (and more) might not be as useful in terms of gaging your own strength.
> I would probably consider how quickly mobs are dying and how fast you manage to get through quests. If this is going well, than you are doing fine. If not, consider one of the points above (gear often being one that can offer significant improvements).

Personally, I have never struggled with it while levelling, but that's within my playstyle (i.e. not solo R10s). Don't forget that the more CON you have, the more damage you do: it's easy enough to confuse the increased resilience of this build with lack of damage

Hope the above was useful!

 

[Kalibano]

Just reached 15k views! Still the most popular build in my repository, followed by Paladin KoTC and Dark Hunter, each with 12k views (for those who care, anyway) DPS melee for the win, it seems!

Enjoy the builds

 

[Kalibano]

Weapon critical profile section updated to include:

> breakdowns of the threat range and multiplier​

> average additional base damage %​

- for weapon crit profile (after feats/compentence bonuses applied)​

- for crit profile boosts (e.g. on 19-20 rolls)​

Hope this extra info is helpful.

 

[Kalibano]

U66 changes

Sadly, this build lost one of its key synergies: 'Visage of Terror' using CON for its DC formula.

Now Visage uses Intimidate, which for a build like mine, creates the massive inconvenience of having to squeeze in gear with intimidate and Charisma to make that ability work.

So this build might take a bit longer to update, as it now involves gear tetris.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Yes, re-gearing is a bit of a pain. But it's worth it.

 

[Tronko]

Now Visage uses Intimidate, which for a build like mine, creates the massive inconvenience of having to squeeze in gear with intimidate and Charisma to make that ability work.

I really struggle to see a massive inconvenience .
The changes have made Visage extraordinarily easier to use. I'm currently playing a ravager (which remains a meme build) and I have 136 DC on Visage without any particular investment, using a single item swap (the Necklace of Glib Tongue). Without the swap, I have 118 standing... which is still no fail in most content. And this is without considering the coffee giving +10.
For Charisma, just an augment or a slotted scale in dino gear is enough. You can also use an augment slot for Intimidate.

 

[Kalibano]

I really struggle to see a massive inconvenience .

Hey there,

Thanks for sharing how you see this change. Some comments below, if I may:

---

I really struggle to see a massive inconvenience .

Forgive me, but it does feel like you can actually see, as you pointed some of them out quite clearly :

...item swap (the Necklace of Glib Tongue)...

For Charisma, just an augment or a slotted scale in dino gear...

...an augment slot for Intimidate.

To further clarify, and to add to your list:
- this is a CON-based build, which means it used CON for...

> all the things CON are normally used for (HPs, Fort saves, etc.)​

> to determine dmg with Great axes = DPS​

> Visage DCs​

... so there was ZERO inconvenience investing in Visage DCs: it was fully and highly synergistic, especially considering Barbarian rage and how CON can be substantially boosted synergistically.

- now it's no longer fully synergistic, and is inconvenient
- apart from Visage, intimidate is pretty much useless for this build (T2 Fear Me! does not require any points in intimidate to apply the de-buff): it is an inconvenience to invest in things that have very limited utility/synergy for the class

- the same might not be the case with STR-based builds, which might have considered pushing CON for DCs (to the detriment of STR and DPS) an inconvenience: since mine is not STR-based, it's irrelevant considering/ comparing with it
- the fact that is doesn't feel inconvenient to some doesn't stop making it inconvenient : it will be very hard to discuss if this is a massive inconvenience or not, as our arguments would be based on subjective viewpoints. To some the glass is half-empty, to some half-full.

---

To expound further on the inconvenience:

The new formula for this ability is: 1d20+intimidate score

and I have 136 DC on Visage without any particular investment, using a single item swap (the Necklace of Glib Tongue). Without the swap, I have 118 standing... which is still no fail in most content. And this is without considering the coffee giving +10.

- since I am uncertain, I will assume the 1d20 is not being factored into the numbers above (so assuming the 1d20 is added at the time Visage is cast). It might be otherwise, but for the sake of argument, assuming it isn't

- forgive me for using your own words, but I really struggle to see how 118 points in intimidate come by "without any particular investment"

​

Without any investment/ no inconvenience:​

+06 Ravager cores 4-6 (to get to Visage, basically)​

+12 Epic skills (auto-granted feats)​

= 18 intimidate​

​

With significant investment and varying degrees of inconvenience:​

+20 competence bonus to Intimidate skill (augment, only @ lvl 32)​

+07 from 14 points in CHA (augment, only @ lvl 32)​

{inconvenience by means of using 2 augment slots in a world with an ever-increasing number of highly competitive augment options, or, even worse, sacrificing a precious Dino slot}​

+23 ranks in intimidate (by level 20)​

{incovenience by means if a lesser TR, and less investment in another skill, in an class that is INT + skill points starved}​

= 68​

+1d20​

= 69-88 (not quite workable at endgame, despite being Will save)​

then +?? from several trees, with the inconvenience from all the AP changes in order to go out of the way to get more intimidate​

unlikely to find 30 extra intimidate from trees to reach the 'magical' 118, and whatever is found might still not bring it to a reasonable DC​

- item swaps to get basic abilities work in the first place are just a massive nuisance: they might appeal to some, but I am of the opinion they should vanish completely from the game. I won't be constantly swapping to use Visage, so I won't count the bonuses from Glib, unless I can fit it in my gear tetris (ah yeah, highly incovenient too )
- those with a ton of past lives and all rare bonuses under the sun might be taking for granted quite a bit ref the investment that is needed?
- for many (possibly the vast majority), the investment is highly likely to be more substantial that what it appears at first glance

---

All in all, my opinion ref this change, which I shared with the Devs in the Lama thread, remains unchanged:

Hi Steelstar,

Dragon Lord is looking amazing! Looking forward to using it on one of my alts.


I do appreciate the likely challenge to find the right thing to boost the Visage DC, especially considering how people have previously expressed a dislike towards some options that have been proposed. I just wanted to share some thoughts on this:

• Visage and intimidate have a solid potential to work well with Dragon Lord, since the archetype utilises and supports CHA
  • CHA trance
  • base ability for Sunder Soul and Dragon’s Roar DCs
  • ability multi-selector for CHA
• So, investment in intimidate, though still a nuisance, would be less of a 'tangent', and slightly more synergistic/obvious

Achievable vs viable (Intimidate DCs)

• Stackable bonuses for intimidate (item/augment, insightful, exceptional, quality, morale, alchemical, festive) while gearing for DPS is highly likely to be a challenge. Likely achievable, but how likely to be viable (and to whom? just for the completionist minority?)
• It might be worth considering that, even with this level of synergy, the likely scenario here is for a minority to simply swap into a full sentient gem filled with CHA-based bonuses + an item like the Necklace of Glib Tongue (28) prior to using Visage, which is a very annoying style of play that does not appeal to everyone. Any ability that makes these annoying swaps as a 'requirement' for them to work should be avoided at all costs really.

---

Barbarian Ravager could use a nice boost, as it is full of potential, but seem quite underpowered compared to FB. Visage is the enhancement with the most potential to become highly desirable, so it offers a viable alternative/incentive to go full Ravager, rather then FB. Perhaps its formula could differ from Dragon Lord's?

• Intimidate is potentially one of the worst options, because:
  • Unlike Dragon Lord, the tree and class does not utilise, neither supports CHA, and is unable to acquire a CHA trance, since multi-classing would eliminate the use of Visage of Terror. There aren't really any attacks/abilities in universal trees that use intimidate or CHA for their DCs, to stretch the utility of such investment (unlike with Assassinate, as I argue further below)
  • Intimidate draws agro, so having a capstone that incentivizes pilling up on CON to make it work, helps absorb the damage. Remove CON from the capstone, and the ‘beefy’ Ravager builds disappear, and so agro becomes highly undesirable
  • Ravager’s ‘Fear Me’ in fact incentivises having the lowest CHA and intimidate possible, as it de-buffs enemies (shaken) upon using the skill, even if unsuccessful, so without drawing agro. Make intimi high, and DPS builds are unlikely to want to use this
  • Intimidate bonuses are mostly found on items that support tank builds, rather than DPS, so wearing items all the items (as opposed to being forced to swap to make it work) is likely to be a challenge for many DPS Ravager builds
  • Barbarian tanks (which don’t seem to be as prolific these days) will invest in Intimidate anyway (as this is what tanks do), and are highly unlikely to go Ravager capstone, so any benefit intimidate can grant those tanks are fully unrelated to Visage.

• Any skill based on STR or CON would be likely to be more useful and suitable. Concentration would be one of my personal suggestions.
  • Intimidate requires a slight stretch of imagination to make some thematic sense for an inta-kill ("you intimidate someone to death!"). Concentration would be in a similar vein: “you concentrate so hard on your rage, or on the creation of a Visage of Terror, that you kill someone?” )
  • Though there would be limited utility to the use of the skill (UMD scrolls, mostly, come to mind), this alone already offers more utility than intimidate, which draws agro, so it reduces dmg output, and also survival
  • Being based on CON is what creates the real synergy and utility, as it would help preserve the ‘beefy’ DPS style of build that Ravager currently supports
  • Concentration bonuses are commonly found on DPS-useful items, so likely to be far less of a challenge ref gear tetris for DPS builds

• Assassinate would be another option with far more utility potential:
  • more thematic than intimidate ref insta-kills
  • potential for further investments and utility in falconry, Shadowdancer and filigrees (not only DC increases, but acquiring attacks that use assassinate DCs)
  • potential to still tie CON to the DC formula (CON + Assassinate DCs, ala Dark Hunter Snap Trap, for example), rather than add a ton of assassinate bonuses to the tree (ala Ninja Spy), so CON remains important, and the current style of builds is preserved
  • Assassinate bonuses are commonly found on DPS-useful items, so likely to be far less of a challenge ref gear tetris for DPS builds

• Tactical DCs, with Trip being a potentially synergistic option with excellent utility
  • it seems to synergise with the primal classes (e.g wolf form and trip, and Fury of the Wild)
  • based on a key Ravager ability (STR), but also CON (e.g. Fury of the Wild)
  • tactics often causes helplessness, and are also a very useful way to improve survival for melees
  • Tactical DC (inc trip) bonuses are commonly found on DPS-useful items, so likely to be far less of a challenge ref gear tetris for DPS builds

Apologies for the lengthy message, and thank you for considering these thoughts.

---

We might need to agree to disagree on this, but one fact remains: there's a massive inconvenience to be dealt with to update the build and get Visage to work with it. Since the damage has already been done, just gotta crack on with it

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Let me put it this way, having played a Ravager on my barb for years now...

The gear Tetris required after this change was a pain, just as all gear tetris is. But, also like most gear Tetris, it's once and done, and absolutely worth the effort!

The principle benefits for me are two fold, and both are immense.

1. You're no longer reliant on Con for your DC. This frees up enormous potential to invest in DPS at the expense of now no longer critical Con. YMMV but I dropped about 4-500hp worth and don't regret it for a second.

2. The DC attainable through Intimidate and Cha are significantly better than was possible with Con. I had made heavy Con investment and the DC was low-mid 80s. I'm now at 110+, without any glib tounge necklace. That's more than enough for R10 at cap.

To be fair my initial knee jerk on this change was much as Kali has posited. I. Was. Dead. Wrong.

I'd be very disheartened if they changed it back now. Only drawback is I'm far less likely to be the only Visage user in the PUG these days. I can live with that. Live with it? Heck, it's fantastic!

 

[Kalibano]

Let me put it this way, having played a Ravager on my barb for years now...

The gear Tetris required after this change was a pain, just as all gear tetris is. But, also like most gear Tetris, it's once and done, and absolutely worth the effort!

The principle benefits for me are two fold, and both are immense.

1. You're no longer reliant on Con for your DC. This frees up enormous potential to invest in DPS at the expense of now no longer critical Con. YMMV but I dropped about 4-500hp worth and don't regret it for a second.

2. The DC attainable through Intimidate and Cha are significantly better than was possible with Con. I had made heavy Con investment and the DC was low-mid 80s. I'm now at 110+, without any glib tounge necklace. That's more than enough for R10 at cap.

To be fair my initial knee jerk on this change was much as Kali has posited. I. Was. Dead. Wrong.

I'd be very disheartened if they changed it back now. Only drawback is I'm far less likely to be the only Visage user in the PUG these days. I can live with that. Live with it? Heck, it's fantastic!

Thanks for sharing your opinion and experience with this too

I do see your perspective, and agree that for STR-based Ravagers there was a potential benefit, since increasing CON could have been seen as detrimental, and the old CON formula needed adjusting to enable a large number of players achieving better DCs.
However, it's likely a similar benefit could have been achieved with other variations to the formula, that could be potentially more useful than intimidate (Trip, assassinate, etc.).

This is a CON-based build, though.
In my ideal world, they should have kept CON, since it seemed a hallmark of the Ravager, but added something else to the formula: 1d20 + CON + ???. This would have opened up similar possibilities, without alienating the CON-Ravager so much.

It is sad to see the CON-based Ravager being made even less desirable. There are not many DPS builds/classes that can make decent use of the dwarven CON to dmg ability: removing highly desirable abilities that require CON, and therefore, worked as incentives, is what I am referring to as undesirable, and uncecessary in this case, since this build was not OP.

 

[Tronko]

It's about basic additions, and in this case, there's very little subjectivity involved.

The old Visage was: 10 + half barbarian level + CON modifier. Meaning, with the capstone required, it was 20 + Stat Modifier.

The new Visage is: 1d20 + Intimidate.

Intimidate is a skill, and like all skills, it benefits from a Stat Modifier (which in this case is Charisma) PLUS a multitude (and there are really many) of additive factors. Leaving aside ranks, enhancements, tomes, PL, morale, luck, etc., and focusing solely on equipment, we have item bonuses, insightful, exceptional, quality, festive, alchemical... all these values add up, and unlike stats in most types of bonuses, the magnitudes are extraordinarily larger than the equivalent for stats (ie item +25/22/20 vs+15/14, insightful +11/10 vs +6/5, quality +6 vs +3, exceptional +10/+9 vs +2, festive +10 vs +2).

The Ravager I'm currently playing is CON-based, and I have 130 Constitution (counting bloodrage and madstone), which is more or less the standing value a player reaches with some PLs, some reaper points and a decent gear.

My DC with the old formula would be 80. I have all the lives/reaper points and more than decent gear (which includes 15 enhancement, 6 insightful, 3 quality, 3 artifact, 2 profane, 2 exceptional, 2 fortune, 2 festive, 2 reaper Constitution).
I imagine for a more casual player, the range would be 60-70 DC.

Now... as I was writing, I have 118 Intimidate standing without item swaps, so with gear that has nothing specific to maximize Visage. My starting Charisma is 12 (yes, I know, I invested a few points in it, but I could have started with 8 and kept 116). I obviously have tomes, PLs, reaper points, etc.

In my case, the difference is 80 (old Visage DC) vs. 118 + d20 (new Visage DC). We're talking about a difference of 39-58 points. Drinking coffee gives you another +10... so up to 68 points of difference.

Think about what a DC caster has to do to gain +68 DC, or even just +39.

Obviously, with the Necklace of Glib Tongue, the gap widens even further to embarrassing figures.
In my last life as a Dragonlord, I had about 150 DC simply by using the Perfected Wrath set, which has +10 insightful on the ring and +10 exceptional on the gloves. Moreover, Perfected Wrath is one of the best melee sets currently available.

For a CON-based Ravager, the new formula offers a huge benefit even starting with Charisma 8 and not using niche items.
Sure, now it's preferable to invest 23 ranks in Intimidate... but in a melee build that ends up having more than 10,000 HP counting temporary + uncanny dodge, I frankly prefer Intimidate to Swim

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

I'm

Thanks for sharing your opinion and experience with this too

I do see your perspective, and agree that for STR-based Ravagers there was a potential benefit, since increasing CON could have been seen as detrimental, and the old CON formula needed adjusting to enable a large number of players achieving better DCs.
However, it's likely a similar benefit could have been achieved with other variations to the formula, that could be potentially more useful than intimidate (Trip, assassinate, etc.).

This is a CON-based build, though.
In my ideal world, they should have kept CON, since it seemed a hallmark of the Ravager, but added something else to the formula: 1d20 + CON + ???. This would have opened up similar possibilities, without alienating the CON-Ravager so much.

It is sad to see the CON-based Ravager being made even less desirable. There are not many DPS builds/classes that can make decent use of the dwarven CON to dmg ability: removing highly desirable abilities that require CON, and therefore, worked as incentives, is what I am referring to as undesirable, and uncecessary in this case, since this build was not OP.

It's not a Con based build any more. At least it certainly doesn't HAVE to be any more. You can achieve a better DC for visage, and much improved damage output at the same time, if you want to go that way. My old Con was on the 130s. The opportunity cost for that was significant and even then Visage didn't land reliably in high Rs.

Being freed from that opportunity cost, at the same time as a much more dependable DC is only a good thing. I don't know how to frame it otherwise.

I'd also note that if you still want to retain your Con emphasis, you still can. 3 augs will suffice to boost your DC to better than you currently have, and not affect your Con. The point is you don't have to if you don't want. YMMV. It's a good thing.

 

[Kalibano]

Thank you both for taking the time to share your valuable inputs and first-hand experiences with this, lots of very good food for thought

 

[Kalibano]

U66 changes: Visage of Terror

New formula: Intimidate + 1d20

This build as it currently is (i.e. without any changes being made post U66):

51+1d20
Intimidate breakdown:

Ability Scores​

> +3: Charisma Modifier (starting CHA = 10, inc +2 tome)​

Favor​

> +2: 'House Deneith: skill bonus' [75 favor]​

Feats​

> +10: 'Epic skills' (auto-granted @ each epic level)​

Heroic​

> +6: Ravager's 'Cores 4-6' (+2 per core)​

Epic Destinies​

> +3: Grandmaster of Flowers 'Disciple's Studies [T1]'​

Gear bonuses​

> +20 competence bonus (Legenday Band of Insightful Commands ring, already in the gear set currently being used)​

Spells/scrolls/buffs​

> +4: morale bonus [Greater Heroism scroll]​

Airship buffs​

> +3: 'Throne Room'​

---

This is still the most popular build in my repository (19k+ views at the time of this post), so to those using/following it:

I've just completed planning the changes needed to achieve workable DCs at the difficulties I normally run (reaper 6-10) and built this for.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

> Gear changes have been kept to a minimum at this point, since the new expansion (Myth Drannor) + level cap raise will be coming in the near future​

> I happen to have a spare +4 intimidate tome that I looted (and which my tank already has): others following this build will need to decide if they want to make such investment​

> This alt currently has a +2 CHA tome, acquired freely via 1750 favor. I will not be purchasing a +8 CHA tome for this build. The only CHA tomes I would be happy to use will need to be gained for free via loot/ dice rolls. I am not wasting that much money on a non-synergistic ability score that is usable for 1 thing only.​

New projected values: 107+1d20

Intimidate breakdown:

51 as per breakdown above​

Planned to be acquired/added:​

Trained skill ranks​

> +23: Intimidate skill points from levelling up​

> +1: extra CHA modifier from higher starting CHA (12) {starting INT reduced to 10}​

Tome: skill​

> +4: inherent bonus to Intimidate skill​

Feats​

> +5: 'Epic Reputation' {replacing 'Great Cleave' @ lvl 27}​

Heroic​

> +3: Ravager 'Ritual Scarring [T1]' {replacing Ravager 'Hardy Rage [T1]' = -3 CON while raging}​

Augments​

> +7: insightful bonus 'Legendary Brightbane Emerald [green]' {replacing 'Emerald of Greater Rage' = -3 Rage charges}​

> +2: luck bonus 'Good Luck +2 [blue]' {replacing 'Golem's Heart'}​

> +6: 'Diamond of +12 enhancement CHA [colorless]'​

> +3: 'Diamond of +05 insightful CHA [colorless]' (CHA total odd value, otherwise it would be +2)​

Favor​

> +2: 'Coin Lords: skill bonus' [400 favor]​

As expected, a massive inconvenience indeed , and far from being achievable without any particular investment.

 

[Kalibano]

Planning for new Visage DC pretty much completed (post above). The numbers are still not where I would personally like them to be, but this will have to do until the new expansion and new gear.

As expected, a massive inconvenience indeed , and far from being achievable without any particular investment.

As soon as I get this done in game (LTR required as well) I'll update all images, since there were a few changes (Ravager tree, an Epic feat, and several augments in the gear planner)

 

[PraetorPlato]

I think what Tronko is pointing out is that your DC under the old formula couldn’t have been much more than 70, so once you invest skill points, everything else is just a cherry on top.

 

[Kalibano]

I think what Tronko is pointing out is that your DC under the old formula couldn’t have been much more than 70, so once you invest skill points, everything else is just a cherry on top.

Sure, I totally get that, and fully agree that the old formula was problematic.

The point I was trying to make, however, was not that the old formula was better. It's outdated and needed updating, no doubt about it. The choice of intimidate as the new item in the formula, for a class like Barbarian, is the point I had an issue with, and which I tried to convey to the Devs when I provided feedback on several occasions (the most recent below):

Hi Steelstar,

Dragon Lord is looking amazing! Looking forward to using it on one of my alts.


I do appreciate the likely challenge to find the right thing to boost the Visage DC, especially considering how people have previously expressed a dislike towards some options that have been proposed. I just wanted to share some thoughts on this:

• Visage and intimidate have a solid potential to work well with Dragon Lord, since the archetype utilises and supports CHA
  • CHA trance
  • base ability for Sunder Soul and Dragon’s Roar DCs
  • ability multi-selector for CHA
• So, investment in intimidate, though still a nuisance, would be less of a 'tangent', and slightly more synergistic/obvious

Achievable vs viable (Intimidate DCs)

• Stackable bonuses for intimidate (item/augment, insightful, exceptional, quality, morale, alchemical, festive) while gearing for DPS is highly likely to be a challenge. Likely achievable, but how likely to be viable (and to whom? just for the completionist minority?)
• It might be worth considering that, even with this level of synergy, the likely scenario here is for a minority to simply swap into a full sentient gem filled with CHA-based bonuses + an item like the Necklace of Glib Tongue (28) prior to using Visage, which is a very annoying style of play that does not appeal to everyone. Any ability that makes these annoying swaps as a 'requirement' for them to work should be avoided at all costs really.

---

Barbarian Ravager could use a nice boost, as it is full of potential, but seem quite underpowered compared to FB. Visage is the enhancement with the most potential to become highly desirable, so it offers a viable alternative/incentive to go full Ravager, rather then FB. Perhaps its formula could differ from Dragon Lord's?

• Intimidate is potentially one of the worst options, because:
  • Unlike Dragon Lord, the tree and class does not utilise, neither supports CHA, and is unable to acquire a CHA trance, since multi-classing would eliminate the use of Visage of Terror. There aren't really any attacks/abilities in universal trees that use intimidate or CHA for their DCs, to stretch the utility of such investment (unlike with Assassinate, as I argue further below)
  • Intimidate draws agro, so having a capstone that incentivizes pilling up on CON to make it work, helps absorb the damage. Remove CON from the capstone, and the ‘beefy’ Ravager builds disappear, and so agro becomes highly undesirable
  • Ravager’s ‘Fear Me’ in fact incentivises having the lowest CHA and intimidate possible, as it de-buffs enemies (shaken) upon using the skill, even if unsuccessful, so without drawing agro. Make intimi high, and DPS builds are unlikely to want to use this
  • Intimidate bonuses are mostly found on items that support tank builds, rather than DPS, so wearing items all the items (as opposed to being forced to swap to make it work) is likely to be a challenge for many DPS Ravager builds
  • Barbarian tanks (which don’t seem to be as prolific these days) will invest in Intimidate anyway (as this is what tanks do), and are highly unlikely to go Ravager capstone, so any benefit intimidate can grant those tanks are fully unrelated to Visage.

• Any skill based on STR or CON would be likely to be more useful and suitable. Concentration would be one of my personal suggestions.
  • Intimidate requires a slight stretch of imagination to make some thematic sense for an inta-kill ("you intimidate someone to death!"). Concentration would be in a similar vein: “you concentrate so hard on your rage, or on the creation of a Visage of Terror, that you kill someone?” )
  • Though there would be limited utility to the use of the skill (UMD scrolls, mostly, come to mind), this alone already offers more utility than intimidate, which draws agro, so it reduces dmg output, and also survival
  • Being based on CON is what creates the real synergy and utility, as it would help preserve the ‘beefy’ DPS style of build that Ravager currently supports
  • Concentration bonuses are commonly found on DPS-useful items, so likely to be far less of a challenge ref gear tetris for DPS builds

• Assassinate would be another option with far more utility potential:
  • more thematic than intimidate ref insta-kills
  • potential for further investments and utility in falconry, Shadowdancer and filigrees (not only DC increases, but acquiring attacks that use assassinate DCs)
  • potential to still tie CON to the DC formula (CON + Assassinate DCs, ala Dark Hunter Snap Trap, for example), rather than add a ton of assassinate bonuses to the tree (ala Ninja Spy), so CON remains important, and the current style of builds is preserved
  • Assassinate bonuses are commonly found on DPS-useful items, so likely to be far less of a challenge ref gear tetris for DPS builds

• Tactical DCs, with Trip being a potentially synergistic option with excellent utility
  • it seems to synergise with the primal classes (e.g wolf form and trip, and Fury of the Wild)
  • based on a key Ravager ability (STR), but also CON (e.g. Fury of the Wild)
  • tactics often causes helplessness, and are also a very useful way to improve survival for melees
  • Tactical DC (inc trip) bonuses are commonly found on DPS-useful items, so likely to be far less of a challenge ref gear tetris for DPS builds

Apologies for the lengthy message, and thank you for considering these thoughts.

It's just not synergistic enough for a class that does not use CHA to have to go out of their way to squeeze that in, and for it to be usable for one ability only, out of everything the class, EDs, feats etc. do. I just finished planning a ton of changes and additions, and it just feels awful that they are useful for one thing only...

There were several other options that could have been in that formula which would have been more synergistic to Barbarians, and enabled us to reach workable DCs.

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All in all, I agree with the fact that, compared to the old outdated formula that desperately needed changing, this formula enables us to reach higher numbers. That was never an issue to me

Dragon Lord created an opportunity for a change to be made, so why settle for just a cherry on top, when we could have something fully synergistic?

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

I don't know if this will help as YMMV, but I find a high Intimidate score is really useful in aggro control when combined with a big negative hate score. Naturally in group rather than solo.

At -100 hate you can batter away at a mob from behind without him turning on you, unless you fire off an intimidate at 100+.

I've found that control to be highly synergistic in play, but as I say YMMV.

EDIT: You probably don't need -100. I can't attest myself but one of my PUGmates is content at -80.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Sure, I totally get that, and fully agree that the old formula was problematic.

The point I was trying to make, however, was not that the old formula was better. It's outdated and needed updating, no doubt about it. The choice of intimidate as the new item in the formula, for a class like Barbarian, is the point I had an issue with, and which I tried to convey to the Devs when I provided feedback on several occasions (the most recent below):


It's just not synergistic enough for a class that does not use CHA to have to go out of their way to squeeze that in, and for it to be usable for one ability only, out of everything the class, EDs, feats etc. do. I just finished planning a ton of changes and additions, and it just feels awful that they are useful for one thing only...

There were several other options that could have been in that formula which would have been more synergistic to Barbarians, and enabled us to reach workable DCs.

---

All in all, I agree with the fact that, compared to the old outdated formula that desperately needed changing, this formula enables us to reach higher numbers. That was never an issue to me

Dragon Lord created an opportunity for a change to be made, so why settle for just a cherry on top, when we could have something fully synergistic?

I think you’d have to do something very unrealistic to get a better formula (like full stat rather than stat mod)-every similar ability scales off of assasinate or something similar, which is awful for barbs.

Skill mod is the highest out of the normal formulas, and intim is the best skill for barb.

 

[Kalibano]

I think you’d have to do something very unrealistic to get a better formula (like full stat rather than stat mod)-every similar ability scales off of assasinate or something similar, which is awful for barbs.

Skill mod is the highest out of the normal formulas, and intim is the best skill for barb.

Thanks again for your input. I do feel quite passionate about this, so I hope you will forgive my last attempt to clarify/expound on my perspective:

What I am progressively getting from the side of the argument that intimidate is the best, is that...

... unlike stats in most types of bonuses, the magnitudes are extraordinarily larger than the equivalent for stats (ie item +25/22/20 vs+15/14, insightful +11/10 vs +6/5, quality +6 vs +3, exceptional +10/+9 vs +2, festive +10 vs +2)

... which creates a convenience for gearing, sure, but doesn't make Intimidate synergistic neither useful beyond Visage.

Further to the above:
- it's very likely values are higher for intimidate to support tanks holding agro, but also possible that it was just not yet balanced, for reasons only the Devs know. They might be well aware of this 'special' benefit Intimidate is granting Visage, but there is as much a possibility that the values for this skill could be brought in line with the rest in the near future, at which point this 'blind' support being displayed for a useless skill to barbs might perhaps suddenly start lessening?
- squeezing all those bonuses in is not easy, nor synergistical (intimidate is normally found on tank items) and it comes at a price: DPS loss
- intimidate draws agro, which is the opposite of what a melee DPS character wants: to be clear, pressing that button and using the ability is not a good idea unless you are a tank
- intimidate is based on Charisma, which is not a Barbarian trait, and nothing in the class nor the destinies Barbarians are likely to utilise benefits from Charisma nor intimidate
- trying extra hard to find a use for intimidate to try to justify why it's nice for barbs is likely to create a further disadvantage: on top of all the waste raising CHA and intimi, then there's a further waste increasing something else e.g. a massive threat reduction investment.

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I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this, as I am still unconvinced: to me, intimidate is awful for barbs, pretty much anything else would have more utility and synergy:

- tactical DCs (e.g. trip, stun, sunder) would have an obvious utility (apart from supporting Visage DCs): crowd control, support the melee playstyle, and have strong synergies with melee EDs barbarians could choose to use.
Trip: FotW,
Stun: LD, SD, GMoF
Sunder: Divine Crusader

- assassinate would be fully thematic (it's an insta-kill ability), and though not present in the barbarian trees, there are other specific places (e.g Falconry, Shadowdancer) that could support DC numbers, while granting further abilities that would benefit from assassinate (e.g. bird attacks causing helplessness). The same is not true for intimidate.

Both of the above work for a ton of other attacks/abilities, so it's difficult to see the argument that something unrealistic would need to be put in place for them to be workbale for barbs.

- even jump (STR-based) or concentrate (CON-based) would have more obvious synergy with barbarians, since they are ability scores barbarians naturally invest in, and would have secondary utilities, which intimidate doesn't

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As it currently stands, the formula might as well have been based on Rust spellpower, since it would have the 'convenience' of having items with large numbers to boost it the easy way, or via annoying item swaps. This would have the same lack of utility as initmidate, and same lack of synergy (INT-based): in fact, it would probably be nicer, as it would create potential to get the Harper trance. There are no universal trees that grant cha trance, and multiclassing to get it eliminates Visage as an option.

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Very happy to agree to disagree being a terrible option or not, I've had to get on and re-do my barb anyway.