If thats a case maybe putting imbues on every class but fighter and aots was a mistake if that's their metric for nerfing a thing.
Gotta nerf constitution next because too many builds are gearing for it.
U62 Preview 2 Balance Refresh
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Gotta nerf constitution next because too many builds are gearing for it.
Fhrek
One Badge of Honor achieved
I thought the same, Devs look at their data and noticed not that Imbues are better, but they are being more used than other builds.
Heh, yeah it sometimes does seem like it would be a lot of work to AVOID imbues. I even had one build with around seven bonus imbue dice... but no actual imbue to apply them to.
Hammatimes
Well-known member
I think Child of the Mountain could be decreased to 1 AP per enhancement, there are a lot of easier and cheaper sources of quality HP so I don't think it would disturb the meta at all. It feels bad to spend 6 AP on it when it's available in a universal tree for 2.
Shield Mastery should also be decoupled from Dwarven Armor Mastery, Humans don't have the pre-req and increasing MDB is useless when you have a Tower Shield anyways.
Shield Mastery should also be decoupled from Dwarven Armor Mastery, Humans don't have the pre-req and increasing MDB is useless when you have a Tower Shield anyways.
First, I'd like to say again please keep up these smaller broad adjustments whenever you all aren't revamping a specific tree. This is a great way to handle things.
Now to the bad. Boy is this a painful change and nerf. I don't really enjoy the thought of standardizing all of the imbues to the same progression and scalars, mostly because not every imbue 'tree' is equal in the amount of dice given/gained. This is further compounded by the fact that we currently only have one imbue viable race with Drow. At least consider giving Tiefling +2 imbue dice or an option for a multiselector to take +2 imbue dice instead of the Elven Archer enhancement in the various elf racial trees to provide more dice access.
This also doesn't account for the fact that out of all of the imbue builds only Vile Chemist and Druid Elemental forms have the means to easily strip immunity for their imbue build without having to take massive penalties to their design (Sorcs having to take a Savant capstone for instance).
If the logic was that the martial imbues scaling off MP/RP are lagging behind, which is the most common complaint about them, I think the solution was to scale those imbues by 300% where it makes sense and to not touch the spellpower ones. There's already a massive opportunity cost to the spellpower imbues in gearing. And with the additional changes to active attacks not increasing the damage of imbues or effect damage, this is further shifting the paradigm in a weird way.
At the very least, please consider changing imbues under the hood to not be counted as spells for the sake of Reaper damage adjustments if this nerf is to go through. That way people that want to continue playing their various imbue/gish builds aren't getting a double-dip of nerfs, when they were already falling behind in higher difficulty spheres compared to other build types.
I dont Like gimps
Well-known member
I agree with the Upper part about trees giving more or less dices and drow as the sole (Helf aa tree too yeah) race
Imbues that are MP/RP HAVE TO lack behind for obvious reasons... beside them Only being behind by round about 400 (outside of burst windows)
so 20-25% (Imma use me having 460 ish RP---->920 ) and an imbue build to be at around 1300sp based on seeing 1540 Sp screens )
1300 isn't your average player. Just like 460ish RP isn't average either.
The numbers should be balanced around the poor unfortunate souls that don't play at the very extreme min-maxed end of the game when it comes to more broad changes like this one across the board.
I'd rather we round up the MP/RP scaling imbues first, and then adjust the SP ones after to see if there needs to be additional adjustments.
the thing is a build using melee/ranged power imbues isn't sacrificing nearly as much front number in order to fit in crazy amounts of spellpower, in fact in the process of scaling your imbue damage you'll be scaling your front number too.
Like let's say for a ranged power imbue build, you'll probably dip into machrotechnic for the imbue dice in there with a tree which gives melee/ranged power, gives 6% doubleshot in the same tier as an option also, run shiradi mantle which scales proc damage per 7 imbue dice etc.
Then the last option is typically going to be shadowdancer for the 6 sneak dice for an 11 point investment. You'll overall have less imbue dice but at the same time every single choice you're making will benefit the rest of your damage.
Like let's say for a ranged power imbue build, you'll probably dip into machrotechnic for the imbue dice in there with a tree which gives melee/ranged power, gives 6% doubleshot in the same tier as an option also, run shiradi mantle which scales proc damage per 7 imbue dice etc.
Then the last option is typically going to be shadowdancer for the 6 sneak dice for an 11 point investment. You'll overall have less imbue dice but at the same time every single choice you're making will benefit the rest of your damage.
I dont Like gimps
Well-known member
I dont see how using 900 and 350(700) instead of 460 1300 makes a difference
beside the main point of me was that MP/RP SHOULD be weaker than sp since going for SP guts your physical dmg in some way while MP/RP imbues encourage your fronts to stay gud
How is 460RP not your average player (Or lets say 430 cuz rare filis idk) ? the filigree setup even denies itself some RP/DS for the sake of some Imbue dices
(FYI the 460RP is bow in reaper with full AF stacks)
I dont Like gimps
Well-known member
Actually nvm i wrote bs but dunno how to delete a comment hehe
Neain
Well-known member
Overwhelming the meta might also be in terms of leveling. Spell power imbues scale quite well while leveling while other physical damage gets spikes and plateaus. if more people are using them to level and get a racial past life or two and 'going too quickly', then this may be aimed at 'slowing them down'. just like changing the active weapon attacks is nerfing dps in heroics, and the heroic weapons losing Ws.
Just my current conspiracy theory based on a dev complaining on the forums once about how can we slow down the players' leveling.
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
I find it exasperating that so much effort was put into creating an imbue system and then, with two large nerfs, a significant portion of the system is destroyed. First, imbues took a major hit when they were classified as spell damage and lost virtually all of their pop in R7+. How much? Well, if you were doing 1200 per hit you end up doing around 80 in R10. Now, all d8 imbue builds - and let's be honest, that's mostly what people were using, will take another huge hit losing 25% of their DPS. Imbues are now practically useless for Legendary high-reaper gameplay.
Giving the Arcane Archer tree reduced costs for substandard abilities doesn't compensate for the 25% loss of DPS that was imposed on the tree. Further, you are only creating a wider power gap. Veteran gamers already build archers using mainly Rogue levels for sneak attacks. New or casual players will continue using a tree like Arcane Archer thinking, hey this is a cool way to play an archer who gets some extra spell damage, and will then be left wondering why other archers are so far outperforming them.
When I think of all the augments, filigrees (some of whose damage was changed from D additions to extra imbues), and set bonuses all taping into the imbue system and then giving the whole thing a 25% damage nerf I can't help but be frustrated.
Giving the Arcane Archer tree reduced costs for substandard abilities doesn't compensate for the 25% loss of DPS that was imposed on the tree. Further, you are only creating a wider power gap. Veteran gamers already build archers using mainly Rogue levels for sneak attacks. New or casual players will continue using a tree like Arcane Archer thinking, hey this is a cool way to play an archer who gets some extra spell damage, and will then be left wondering why other archers are so far outperforming them.
When I think of all the augments, filigrees (some of whose damage was changed from D additions to extra imbues), and set bonuses all taping into the imbue system and then giving the whole thing a 25% damage nerf I can't help but be frustrated.
Lazuli
Well-known member
Well, Marshal, SSG's proven tendency to act like this is why I asked them in the first preview to make sure that changing active attacks like this is what they really want to do, because I'm sure that within a few months or a year will come with erroneous data to nerf their change, hitting, as always, the most fragile builds instead of the most op.
SSG is extremely predictable in this regard. They's done it so many times I've lost count. This nerf to imbues is absurd, because these builds are not ops and because the change they are proposing creates even more imbalances. Not all imbue should be the same, because some are designed to be the main source of damage in a class otherwise weak for weapon combat (EK, although arcane archer also counts the imbue as its star damage source), others have less melee/ranged power in their trees, others have many immunities against them, and so on. Imbues should not be standardized for the simple reason that each one serves classes with different needs, strengths and weaknesses. But useless to explain it to SSG.
When they created the new imbue system I already imagined something like this would happen. It was only a matter of time. In their obsession with their new belief that standardization leads to balance, these devs have forgotten that what makes this game great is precisely its diversity (an increasingly threatened diversity).
The system was actually unbalanced from the beginning because it disproportionately favored multiclass builds over pure builds, but what this change does is completely kill pure builds. So, good job, SSG.
In any case, it has taken them almost a year to destroy their new imbue system. That's a lot for SSG! Often their shinny new changes last less lol.
SSG is extremely predictable in this regard. They's done it so many times I've lost count. This nerf to imbues is absurd, because these builds are not ops and because the change they are proposing creates even more imbalances. Not all imbue should be the same, because some are designed to be the main source of damage in a class otherwise weak for weapon combat (EK, although arcane archer also counts the imbue as its star damage source), others have less melee/ranged power in their trees, others have many immunities against them, and so on. Imbues should not be standardized for the simple reason that each one serves classes with different needs, strengths and weaknesses. But useless to explain it to SSG.
When they created the new imbue system I already imagined something like this would happen. It was only a matter of time. In their obsession with their new belief that standardization leads to balance, these devs have forgotten that what makes this game great is precisely its diversity (an increasingly threatened diversity).
The system was actually unbalanced from the beginning because it disproportionately favored multiclass builds over pure builds, but what this change does is completely kill pure builds. So, good job, SSG.
In any case, it has taken them almost a year to destroy their new imbue system. That's a lot for SSG! Often their shinny new changes last less lol.
Lazuli
Well-known member
´So, this core is gone? "
Poisoned Coating: Imbue Toggle: While active, simple weapons deal an additional 1d8 Poison damage on hit. This damage scales with Spell Power. You also gain +1 bonus Imbue Dice every 3 Alchemist levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18). Passive: While your Reaction is Orchidium, +5 Physical Resistance Rating.
- Note: Mutually exclusive with all other Imbues."
Yes, I know it wasn't a meta build. But it was an ok build for a weak alt with hardly any past lives, which allowed it to contribute to a group. I know I should have made it more muticlass and really exploited other much more OP synergies, but I just wanted a simple build that worked preferably in almost pure class. What a heretical thought of mine.
Well, well, SSG, congratulations for hitting the weakest as always: pure builds, alts, etc.
But now a very serious question, Torc. You have time to make thousands of changes that no one has asked of you, like this one, like amber temple, etc. When will you have time to do something that many have asked you for YEARS? That is, help the alts. You should know the level of frustration many players have with their alts these days. Come on, Torc. Instead of bringing to your desk changes that no one wants, how about bringing the current moribund state of the alts to the desk?
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Lazuli
Well-known member
What I would like is you, devs, to stop destroying builds. Whether you destroy them with a higher pass or with quick changes is the least important thing, the important thing is that you destroy them.
For the rest, quick and small changes are good when the changes, you know, are for the better because they fix something that was not working well. But unnecessary changes that ruin builds? These are equally undesirable in major and minor changes, so as you see, they are going to be equally poorly received but even so, you are not going to stop making them, so there is little else we players can say.
Is it? The preview is no longer available to check, but my interpretation of the text was that the Orchidium bonus for Core 2 was changing, but that's it. Otherwise, Core 2 would be JUST an Orchidium bonus... which would be inconsistent with all the other cores. Ergo, my understanding is that Poisoned Coating continues to work as stated above EXCEPT for the change to 75% Spell Power scaling on d8 imbues.
Side note: Why DO the previews get shut down like that? Wouldn't it make more sense to just leave it up so 'user acceptance testing' could continue?
Lazuli
Well-known member
I don't know, I haven't had time to get into lammania and, yes, the preview window is ridiculously short. You just have to have a tight streak at work or with your family and it's impossible to test anything.
But the text is what it seems to imply. If that core remained unchanged and gave the imbue dice for the alchemist levels, I highly doubt they would add more dice to the rest of the cores. It is an important nerf to some of the builds, which dwarfs the spellpower scaling.
Anyway, another alt destroyed, not that it matters much, I needed another mule anyway.
Rosze
Active member
Change requests:
Druid Seasons Herald: tier 5 Winters heart should probably have the same duration and cooldown bringing it to par with Jaws of the wolf.
Warlocks still need a way to strip immunity. Many struggle due to their spells not doing any damage. Especially Abyss since undead are everywhere. Maybe just add it to lvl 12 warlock.
Druid Seasons Herald: tier 5 Winters heart should probably have the same duration and cooldown bringing it to par with Jaws of the wolf.
Warlocks still need a way to strip immunity. Many struggle due to their spells not doing any damage. Especially Abyss since undead are everywhere. Maybe just add it to lvl 12 warlock.
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