Introducing our VIP Loyalty Reward Program!

[Spook]

People who will spend anything on this game will spend for VIP just based on +10% XP, +10% movement speed, opening instances on E/R1 on new characters, 500DPT a month etc.

People who won't spend anything on this game won't.

It's a pretty simple calculus. A month of DDO costs less than a take-out meal at McDonalds.

And there is a significant number of people in the middle that would pay for VIP if it was better value. It really should be a no brainer that VIP should be good enough that everyone that can afford to pay for VIP wants to pay for VIP.

 

[seph1roth5]

They seem to know what they are doing in managing the feedback (not in rewarding VIPs).

They dropped this program 13 months ago to near universal disdain. Eventually those complaints died down (probably because many thought they went back to the drawing board). Now they dropped it again once it is a done deal (nothing is gonna change by May 1) so no point trying to debate the subject. The disdain may be slightly lower because they got rid of the worst reward on the list (fletching) and relented on the requirement to be VIP to use the mount/cosmetics.

I notice that the reward list still hasn't given the sentient XP for the bag of many things. it is still listed as:

• Sentient XP Gem Worth Sentient XP

Uhhh I'm going to count 10% item durability in the same garbage tier as fletching and hireling duration lol.

 

[DDO Gaming]

And there is a significant number of people in the middle that would pay for VIP if it was better value. It really should be a no brainer that VIP should be good enough that everyone that can afford to pay for VIP wants to pay for VIP.

VIP is inexpensive. AND SSG gives freebie DDOPoints that as a gamer you can use to buy ANYTHING in the DDO Store. There is a huge amount of freebie stuff in DDO (along with the pack codes that are occasionally given out) AND...you can play the entire game AND TR multiple times without ever spending a penny.

Sure the VIP++ benefits are...underwhelming but equally...does it really matter they messedup the VIP++ when the game potentially gives you pretty much everything free anyway?

 

[DDO Gaming]

Folks buy VIP for ONLY one purpose: to speedup character progression. Absoluteluy no other reason. Otherwise you can play the entire game with friends in a guild created with freebie DDO Points and NEVER spend a penny

 

[DDO Gaming]

So instead of whining about how bad VIP++ benefits are why don't we just continue focusing on character builds etc because that is the core strength of the game

 

[Br4d]

VIP is inexpensive. AND SSG gives freebie DDOPoints that as a gamer you can use to buy ANYTHING in the DDO Store. There is a huge amount of freebie stuff in DDO (along with the pack codes that are occasionally given out) AND...you can play the entire game AND TR multiple times without ever spending a penny.

Sure the VIP++ benefits are...underwhelming but equally...does it really matter they messedup the VIP++ when the game potentially gives you pretty much everything free anyway?

The game is much better as a VIP as things currently stand. That's what everybody is missing.

DDO Premium and DDO VIP are different things and unless you are a vet on your final build you're just much better off as a VIP.

Whenever my sub lapses I resolve not to pay for the game given the investment I've already put in. Then I play for a few days and resub because things like opening instances on R1 on my alt play characters is actually important for a solo player.

Not to mention I feel the speed differential and the +10% XP is something additional you can get from no other source.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

Uhhh I'm going to count 10% item durability in the same garbage tier as fletching and hireling duration lol.

I think the item durability perk has value. Anyone who's ever played a quarterstaff build has felt the pain of constant weapon breaks. Ever fight oozes or rust monsters as you level up? Same thing. This is a great benefit for new/returning/casual players.

Will ALL players find it equally valuable? No, and that's ok.

 

[Guntango]

I think the item durability perk has value. Anyone who's ever played a quarterstaff build has felt the pain of constant weapon breaks. Ever fight oozes or rust monsters as you level up? Same thing. This is a great benefit for new/returning/casual players.

Will ALL players find it equally valuable? No, and that's ok.

Wow.

No, it's garbage. Your weapon will still break in one quest fighting oozes if you have 50% durability, hence ooze bane, crystal weapons, etc. It's a pig in pretty lipstick and sparkles that some people find adorable.

 

[The Narc]

Wow.

No, it's garbage. Your weapon will still break in one quest fighting oozes if you have 50% durability, hence ooze bane, crystal weapons, etc. It's a pig in pretty lipstick and sparkles that some people find adorable.

Maybe they will stack it every year and it will eventually become 100% to those that are truly loyal VIP’s. Just a maybe but who knows.

 

[Warsaga]

VIP is inexpensive. AND SSG gives freebie DDOPoints that as a gamer you can use to buy ANYTHING in the DDO Store. There is a huge amount of freebie stuff in DDO (along with the pack codes that are occasionally given out) AND...you can play the entire game AND TR multiple times without ever spending a penny.

Sure the VIP++ benefits are...underwhelming but equally...does it really matter they messedup the VIP++ when the game potentially gives you pretty much everything free anyway?

Inexpensive? Putting aside that you don't have to sub, the point here is that SSG wants players to sub and is trying to incentivize them to do so. That said, SSG is asking:

$100-$180 per year depending if you're buying yearly or month-month. Its such a huge price variable that they obviously over price the monthly to make the yearly more attractive. They want that $100 one payment pop immediately (funnily enough, they don't want to give you these "rewards" immediately though). This is at the high end of mmo sub costs BUT it would be a value if you got the yearly expansions with it. $180 for what the sub offers + the yearly ultimate, that doesn't seem to bad. That's basically a 12month sub + the $90 (with vip discount) that we would pay for the expansion.

Instead, SSG is asking players to double dip. Pay this huge cost + pay another huge cost for the expansion content. Now we can choose not to, of course. But we're talking about what SSG wants. Is it wrong for SSG to want money to pay the costs of staff and development? Not at all. But if they want to understand the outrage, they have to realize that their monetization tips ALL the scales in favor of the company and none in the direction of the players.

This "VIP Loyalty Program" has ONLY made me hyper examine and evaluate every little arbitrary roadblock, every lack of QOL, every little progression gated by monetization - all of it. Even for defenders of this, however much fun you think you're having now - you could have that much more fun on top of it if SSG just allowed it to be. It feels like they're carefully curating how much we can do, when we can do it, and assigning a cost and value to all of it. Pay up front for the sub but have to manually check in on schedule and go to the assigned npc? They know this is bad and players don't want it but they're going to do it anyway bc **** us. If players actually want whatever garbage is offered, (and the FOMO promise of maaaaaaybe better rewards in later years so don't dare fall behind lmao), then they are begrudgingly railroaded into a system they don't agree with.

God, this is the worst thing they could've done. There are players like me who've been around for years and years, just quietly playing along. Silently accepting every little lack of qol, every little roadblock, every little nuisance, every discomfort, all the lag, all the nerfs, all the lack of support -everything. Putting up with it all because it seemed like this little middling dev team was doing the best they could to keep the lights on and offer us what little they could.

That's what I thought. That's what I would've continued to think if they hadn't slapped us in the face with this trash *** program. "Heres some garbage, we don't care if you don't like it - **** and eat it." The incredulous part is that they refuse to offer enough in the "**** and eat it" category to make it worth my time.

 

[Ungermax]

So instead of whining about how bad VIP++ benefits are why don't we just continue focusing on character builds etc because that is the core strength of the game

This thread is to discuss the VIP program... If you are happy with it fine but those who aren't will discuss it

 

[Shear-buckler]

VIP is inexpensive. AND SSG gives freebie DDOPoints that as a gamer you can use to buy ANYTHING in the DDO Store. There is a huge amount of freebie stuff in DDO (along with the pack codes that are occasionally given out) AND...you can play the entire game AND TR multiple times without ever spending a penny.

Sure the VIP++ benefits are...underwhelming but equally...does it really matter they messedup the VIP++ when the game potentially gives you pretty much everything free anyway?

Of course it matters that they messed it up. Defending a system by saying that it doesn't matter that it's bad is idiotic.
The devs have poured a lot of time into creating and promoting this system, so clearly they hoped to gain something out if it in return.

 

[Warsaga]

I think the item durability perk has value. Anyone who's ever played a quarterstaff build has felt the pain of constant weapon breaks. Ever fight oozes or rust monsters as you level up? Same thing. This is a great benefit for new/returning/casual players.

Will ALL players find it equally valuable? No, and that's ok.

The issue here is that they seem to be going out of their way to make this as least desirable as possible. You're not wrong, this can be valuable to a portion of players if it was 100%. Its not like SSG doesn't know this. They do it over in LOTRO. Its just common sense that it would be 100% to be attractive. 10% just looks like they've gone out of their way to make something not that great to be as bad as humanly possible. They didn't have to do it, they chose to.

Same thing with the 300 sent gem. Cord claims that the 300 was a typing error and it was actually a greater value. Great, stuff happens. Update the post with what the correct value was intended to be. They haven't done so yet. This is because it was not a mistake, they definitely thought 300 sent xp was enough for players, and because of the backlash now they are reevaluating. They can't even admit when they've miscalculated, they have to lie about it.

Player should be wondering why, on a scale of 1-10, what SSG asks of players is always a 10 and what they offer to players is always a 1. Talk about minimum investment for maximum return? Keep the worms on the hook? SSG knows all about it!

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

The issue here is that they seem to be going out of their way to make this as least desirable as possible. You're not wrong, this can be valuable to a portion of players if it was 100%. Its not like SSG doesn't know this. They do it over in LOTRO. Its just common sense that it would be 100% to be attractive. 10% just looks like they've gone out of their way to make something not that great to be as bad as humanly possible. They didn't have to do it, they chose to.

I agree that the bonus could be better. I suspect, but can't confirm, that the reason it is lower is because of the stacking each year.

Same thing with the 300 sent gem. Cord claims that the 300 was a typing error and it was actually a greater value. Great, stuff happens. Update the post with what the correct value was intended to be. They haven't done so yet. This is because it was not a mistake, they definitely thought 300 sent xp was enough for players, and because of the backlash now they are reevaluating. They can't even admit when they've miscalculated, they have to lie about it.

I agree with this too. It's 100k sent xp to go from 8 slots to 10 on a weapon. Something like a stone worth 25k sent xp would be a nice option.

Player should be wondering why, on a scale of 1-10, what SSG asks of players is always a 10 and what they offer to players is always a 1. Talk about minimum investment for maximum return? Keep the worms on the hook? SSG knows all about it!

$100 for VIP for 12 months and $40 for an expansion doesn't seem like a lot. That's less than $12/mo. Even if you buy the biggest expansion for $140 it's $20/mo, but you would only ever pay that if you valued the teleport item, cosmectics, hirelings, bank space, etc. or if the spend was trivial in your budget. A lot of other online games come at a cost of $15/mo. $12 to get everything (VIP + Expansion) seems reasonable.

 

[Dandonk]

I agree that the bonus could be better. I suspect, but can't confirm, that the reason it is lower is because of the stacking each year.

This seems to me to be a big flaw in the proposed program.

First point: It's bad now, with little extra incentive to join. Meaning it doesn't actually entice very many who aren't already VIP. It's very little effect for the effort.

Second point: If the bonuses actually end up stacking up to something good, new players going VIP will feel hopelessly behind and look into a 8-10 year period before catching up to where vets are.... and at that point, vets would be the new years ahead. There's no way to catch up. It's discouraging to new players looking at a shiny that five years in the future, and a power gap they can never bridge.

Which is why I think a general improvement like a bit better XP bonus, or much more shared bank, or starting at 3/4 after TR (or all of them) would've been better. It wouldn't create the gap problems that this system does.

 

[Warsaga]

I agree that the bonus could be better. I suspect, but can't confirm, that the reason it is lower is because of the stacking each year.

I agree with this too. It's 100k sent xp to go from 8 slots to 10 on a weapon. Something like a stone worth 25k sent xp would be a nice option.

$100 for VIP for 12 months and $40 for an expansion doesn't seem like a lot. That's less than $12/mo. Even if you buy the biggest expansion for $140 it's $20/mo, but you would only ever pay that if you valued the teleport item, cosmectics, hirelings, bank space, etc. or if the spend was trivial in your budget. A lot of other online games come at a cost of $15/mo. $12 to get everything (VIP + Expansion) seems reasonable.

The problem I have with this, bud, is that this statement highlights and favors the best possible scenario for SSG, not for players. If the stars align then it could very well work out like this for a couple players. But I don't think that either of us thinks that most players currently sub for a year up front. Probably not half...probably a minority if we're being honest. This new vip program could've been a way to heavily incentivize that upfront year sub by giving the rewards up front, but SSG just doesn't want to. Fine.

I think we may also agree that most players who've been around awhile also value the most - QOL features. These just so happen to be all the things you mentioned above: teleport, hirelings, bank space - all qol. Even if you don't agree that is what most players value - SSG thinks that. Its why they put those things behind the biggest paywall.

I too would like to be charitable to SSG, but their goal does not seem to be to have most players go for the minimum investment scenario you laid out. But you know what? They could fix it via a method they've actually used before! Include subscription in the expansion cost. Add an expansion offer for $100-$150 that includes a year of subscription + the $40 quests only pack and then it would work out exactly like you described. We can verify that the tech to do this has already been around for years.

They aren't going to do it.

 

[Br4d]

I don't think DDO has a prayer of lasting long enough to make the cumulative rewards a catchup problem.

Even if it did it's obvious at this point that SSG has no sympathy for people left behind.

 

[Shear-buckler]

This seems to me to be a big flaw in the proposed program.

First point: It's bad now, with little extra incentive to join. Meaning it doesn't actually entice very many who aren't already VIP. It's very little effect for the effort.

Second point: If the bonuses actually end up stacking up to something good, new players going VIP will feel hopelessly behind and look into a 8-10 year period before catching up to where vets are.... and at that point, vets would be the new years ahead. There's no way to catch up. It's discouraging to new players looking at a shiny that five years in the future, and a power gap they can never bridge.

Which is why I think a general improvement like a bit better XP bonus, or much more shared bank, or starting at 3/4 after TR (or all of them) would've been better. It wouldn't create the gap problems that this system does.

This exactly captures the problem with the system and why it will never become well recieved.

 

[PraetorPlato]

I don't think DDO has a prayer of lasting long enough to make the cumulative rewards a catchup problem.

Even if it did it's obvious at this point that SSG has no sympathy for people left behind.

People have been doomsaying about DDO for a literal decade. Right now, server population is the exact same as the pre-code era. We're getting a solid stream of steady content, revamps designed to make things scale better into the future. There's no reason to think that DDO's about to die.

 

[seph1roth5]

Like I said several times, here lol, the only people that don't think this plan is hot garbage are the ones that were going to vip anyway. This loyalty program has zero effect on them, regardless of if it were 1 bigbys a year or 5000ddopts a month. Ok I guess that might make them use alts more.

People are still super missing the point that, between DDO coming out and 2012, vips got everything. Then Menace came out. Ok it was a huge pack full of stuff, epic destinies, level cap increase (a big one too not just 2), etc. It felt like a gigantic thing. Then next year shadowfell pushed the level cap up more. Not quite as big as menace...and though the quests are big XP I don't personally care for them that much. I like SOME but you have to flag so meh.

But either way, then there were no expansions for 3+ years, and VIP got everything in between. Then Ravenloft came. RL's big appeal was lv 29 gear, that was a whole new level of crazy. Plus it was very well done, pretty sure the majority of people really liked the atmosphere. But that's irrelevant.

Now ravenloft technically came out in 2017, but it was Dec so I'm going to round up and say it was the big thing for 2018 as well.
2019 - sharn
2020 - fey
2021 - saltmarsh
2022 - dread
2023 - vecna
2024 - myth drannor

We went from having piles and piles of stuff free to VIP, with a few xpacs that pushed the level up, to 1 xpac/mini a year, and them inching up the level cap just because that's the timeframe they chose.

Mini xpacs are a slap in the face to vips anyway. They put in like 15% more effort than a normal adventure pack and charge $20 instead of giving it to us for free. What if salt/vecna were a couple quests shorter? What if sharn only had 1 raid, or the raids came later (like they sometimes do anyway).

I like/run all of the xpacs other than salt, but at the end of the day they didn't all NEED to be xpacs. That's literally $200 extra right there vips have to pay. Look at all the other xpacs that have come out and how little the number of quests there were

5 - age of rage
5 - white plume
1 - killing time
1 - lost at sea (free)
6 - soul splitter
8 - borderlands (fairly beefy, but also all short. Which I like for ease but also means less effort on their part)
? - catacombs/deleras - Not sure how to count reworks/epic-ing. Definitely takes work but also most of the job is already DONE. And redoing gear is just putting it through an automated system.
5 - gatekeepers
4 - promise of fire. 1 free and 3 legendary-ing of raids, which again, is a mostly automated process, not counting completely new gear
4 - perils
1 - dread sea scrolls
3 - hunt
4.5 - temple of elemental evil - not sure how to count this either. Took 2 gigantic and made into 7? I'll mix em and say 4.5
5 - grip
1 - kill ten rats
? - Droam: Updates to 7 but again, pretty much the same quests with a little qol upgrade.
4 - ilithid invasion
1 - legendary chrono (haven't run so don't know if it's the exact same as other chronos)
1 - catastrophe (free)
3 - slice of life (free)

I'm not saying pre-RL was all giantholds and sands, but we're NEVER going to get anything close to that anymore, because they can just slap on another quest or 2 and charge $40 for it. That's the devaluation of VIP.