Introducing our VIP Loyalty Reward Program!

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

The problem I have with this, bud, is that this statement highlights and favors the best possible scenario for SSG, not for players. If the stars align then it could very well work out like this for a couple players. But I don't think that either of us thinks that most players currently sub for a year up front. Probably not half...probably a minority if we're being honest.

Players should buy a year at a time. I would guess most buy 3 months at a time. I doubt many pay month by month. For any who do, skip a month of VIP and buy 3 the following month instead. Either way, it's on the consumer to shop the best price. Incentivizing people to stay VIP longer via price isn't novel to DDO.

This new vip program could've been a way to heavily incentivize that upfront year sub by giving the rewards up front, but SSG just doesn't want to. Fine.

I think Dandonk captured this well:

This seems to me to be a big flaw in the proposed program.

First point: It's bad now, with little extra incentive to join. Meaning it doesn't actually entice very many who aren't already VIP. It's very little effect for the effort.

Second point: If the bonuses actually end up stacking up to something good, new players going VIP will feel hopelessly behind and look into a 8-10 year period before catching up to where vets are.... and at that point, vets would be the new years ahead. There's no way to catch up. It's discouraging to new players looking at a shiny that five years in the future, and a power gap they can never bridge.

Which is why I think a general improvement like a bit better XP bonus, or much more shared bank, or starting at 3/4 after TR (or all of them) would've been better. It wouldn't create the gap problems that this system does.

One problem with front-loading bonuses is that it doesn't actually create long-term loyalty to the VIP program. It's the same reason guest passes aren't sold right after an expansion drops. Otherwise, people would choose the less expensive option of a guest pass, farm all of the loot they want from the expansion and then pass on actually purchasing.

Also- there's this odd tension between "the rewards aren't good enough" and "I'm afraid I won't catch up to the good benefits I'll really want". If you plan to play DDO consistently over time, and you want to have the best bonuses, then join us in supporting the game. The fact the second point is even a concern at all means they've built value into the VIP Loyalty Rewards program, otherwise people wouldn't care if they missed out.

I think we may also agree that most players who've been around awhile also value the most - QOL features. These just so happen to be all the things you mentioned above: teleport, hirelings, bank space - all qol. Even if you don't agree that is what most players value - SSG thinks that. Its why they put those things behind the biggest paywall.

I think what players value/want the most from the dev team is complex and changes over time. I want blue reaper wings. I also want new content. When the level cap raises to 34, I'm going to want more raids to play at cap. I also want revamps of quite a few classes. I also want new races/classes to play. There are tons of classic modules I would like to see introduced to DDO and a lot of older raids/content I would like to see updated to Legendary.

I too would like to be charitable to SSG, but their goal does not seem to be to have most players go for the minimum investment scenario you laid out. But you know what? They could fix it via a method they've actually used before! Include subscription in the expansion cost. Add an expansion offer for $100-$150 that includes a year of subscription + the $40 quests only pack and then it would work out exactly like you described. We can verify that the tech to do this has already been around for years.

They aren't going to do it.

I agree with the sentiment, but feel there's better value in offering previous expansions with the new expansions (rather than VIP). I would like them to offer an expansion tier at $199, which includes the current expansion (with all the extras) and also all previous expansions + their teleport items. I have a guildie who recently returned to DDO and buying all of the expansions at once IS cost-prohibitive for a new/returning player. I don't believe the cost of VIP + expansion each year falls into that category.

 

[Ahpuch]

I agree that the bonus could be better. I suspect, but can't confirm, that the reason it is lower is because of the stacking each year.

Stacking isnt much of an argument. If they made it 50% and it took one and half years to get to 100% it would still only be OK. 10 years to get to 100% is actually insulting.

Item wear for most people is simply a minor loss of plat in a game where most vips have too much plat. If they had made this free repairs it would be better but still bad. If they had made it a free summons of the anvil once per day it would be better but still bad.

There maybe a couple of quarterstaff builds that would have found it useful at 50% but since it will take 5 years to get to being useful even they should not like it.

the only people that don't think this plan is hot garbage are the ones that were going to vip anyway.

I am a VIP and will stay so. But i still think its mostly garbage. I guess thats bettet than hot garbage.

 

[rabidfox]

I agree that the bonus could be better. I suspect, but can't confirm, that the reason it is lower is because of the stacking each year.

Long term time gated stacking is a bad thing IMO. It's great for those who get in from the beginning, but it creates a gap that can't be closed. Currently any of the gaps in the game, past lives, reaper points, gear, etc. can all be be closed by playing a bunch.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

Long term time gated stacking is a bad thing IMO. It's great for those who get in from the beginning, but it creates a gap that can't be closed. Currently any of the gaps in the game, past lives, reaper points, gear, etc. can all be be closed by playing a bunch.

Right now the only bonuses I see that could stack are the 1% discovery bonus, 10% item durability, and 10% crafting. You can craft items for other players, you can pass loot in the chest and many here were dismissive of any type of durability bonus. I don't think there is any reason for concern about the stacking bonuses.

I also find value that long-term VIPs will be distinguishable with various cosmetic/mount rewards. Which is much the same as folks who participate in particular Hardcore League seasons.

 

[rabidfox]

Right now the only bonuses I see that could stack are the 1% discovery bonus, 10% item durability, and 10% crafting. You can craft items for other players, you can pass loot in the chest and many here were dismissive of any type of durability bonus. I don't think there is any reason for concern about the stacking bonuses.

Try explaining that to a new/returning player. Things people see as being years off annoy many folks. Time gating is time gating, it doesn't matter if you think they're big deals or not. Plenty of folks base decisions off feels not numbers.

 

[Aelonwy]

(point 1)
Also- there's this odd tension between "the rewards aren't good enough" and "I'm afraid I won't catch up to the good benefits I'll really want". If you plan to play DDO consistently over time, and you want to have the best bonuses, then join us in supporting the game. The fact the second point is even a concern at all means they've built value into the VIP Loyalty Rewards program, otherwise people wouldn't care if they missed out.

(Point 2)
I agree with the sentiment, but feel there's better value in offering previous expansions with the new expansions (rather than VIP). I would like them to offer an expansion tier at $199, which includes the current expansion (with all the extras) and also all previous expansions + their teleport items. I have a guildie who recently returned to DDO and buying all of the expansions at once IS cost-prohibitive for a new/returning player. I don't believe the cost of VIP + expansion each year falls into that category.

To Point 1: This tension only exists where the reward itself may NOT be considered valuable in the first year or two or more of acquiring it but may eventually stack to a reasonable value (%chance for named loot for instance) and/or such rewards as the cosmetics may not be your cup of tea this year but perhaps next year's or the year after that has something you want but the way you must claim rewards consecutively to push the bracket to your desired outcome creates dissatisfaction with the system.

It is the design of the system creating this tension because if all the rewards were unquestionably "good enough" everyone that could afford to would sub.

To Point 2: This method has been done successfully in many other games and is a very good idea, and has been brought up in DDO before but has always been ignored. The creation of the cheaper bundled older expansion is a step in the right direction, however, I have always advocated for content to be "retired" to FtoP after a specific time period has passed. 10 years seems a good number. The biggest advantage I see to this is devs being free to add completely new content to older wilderness zones. E.G. Hypothetically, if MotU were retired to FtoP, then King's Forest would be able to host new premium adventure packs. The Underdark could host new premium adventure packs and/or even extensions to the zone leading to new premium adventure packs. Mines of Tethyamar for instance could be moved to a connected zone (with a carriage type teleport to this zone from Eveningstar as it is now) which would actually make sense to the verisimilitude of the game world. Sschindylryn could lead to whole other Drow cities and new premium adventure packs within.

 

[rabidfox]

I've been trying to figure out what it is about the VIP program change that rubs me the wrong way. And the big one is that it feels like an obligation FOMO system. If I don't subscribe then I might suddenly be a year+ behind if month 18 has something I really want. If I don't log in every month and click the vendor then I fall behind. It's a psychological thing, where rather than feel excitement for it, it feels like it's a chore design where one is afraid that they'll be way behind if SSG offers something amazing in year 2 (or beyond). It's a video game I play for fun (and thus spend money on the thing I enjoy), having it feel like an obligation doesn't sit right with my idea of fun.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

Try explaining that to a new/returning player. Things people see as being years off annoy many folks. Time gating is time gating, it doesn't matter if you think they're big deals or not. Plenty of folks base decisions off feels not numbers.

I don't disagree with you. Because of that, I don't want the VIP benefits to be must-have items or extended to the degree many in this thread have suggested. If a new player feel bad for not having the same loot drop chance, you can always offer to run with them and help them pull.

To Point 1: This tension only exists where the reward itself may NOT be considered valuable in the first year or two or more of acquiring it but may eventually stack to a reasonable value (%chance for named loot for instance) and/or such rewards as the cosmetics may not be your cup of tea this year but perhaps next year's or the year after that has something you want but the way you must claim rewards consecutively to push the bracket to your desired outcome creates dissatisfaction with the system.

It is the design of the system creating this tension because if all the rewards were unquestionably "good enough" everyone that could afford to would sub.

I suspect most who have played DDO for 2+ years loot enough chests for the extra 1% loot chance to make a difference. I also suspect if they had made it an extra 10%+ chance at loot, there would be an equal amount of players unhappy that they went full pay to win.

To Point 2: This method has been done successfully in many other games and is a very good idea, and has been brought up in DDO before but has always been ignored. The creation of the cheaper bundled older expansion is a step in the right direction, however, I have always advocated for content to be "retired" to FtoP after a specific time period has passed. 10 years seems a good number. The biggest advantage I see to this is devs being free to add completely new content to older wilderness zones. E.G. Hypothetically, if MotU were retired to FtoP, then King's Forest would be able to host new premium adventure packs. The Underdark could host new premium adventure packs and/or even extensions to the zone leading to new premium adventure packs. Mines of Tethyamar for instance could be moved to a connected zone (with a carriage type teleport to this zone from Eveningstar as it is now) which would actually make sense to the verisimilitude of the game world. Sschindylryn could lead to whole other Drow cities and new premium adventure packs within.

Would love all of this.

I've been trying to figure out what it is about the VIP program change that rubs me the wrong way. And the big one is that it feels like an obligation FOMO system. If I don't subscribe then I might suddenly be a year+ behind if month 18 has something I really want. If I don't log in every month and click the vendor then I fall behind. It's a psychological thing, where rather than feel excitement for it, it feels like it's a chore design where one is afraid that they'll be way behind if SSG offers something amazing in year 2 (or beyond). It's a video game I play for fun (and thus spend money on the thing I enjoy), having it feel like an obligation doesn't sit right with my idea of fun.

In the past, when items were automatically delivered to a character's inventory, people disliked the system because they accidentally logged onto the wrong character and receive the item they actually wanted on their main character. Many also disliked their inventory getting clogged up with these drops. I don't know if the tech would support a store coupon code being delivered to your game account email whenever you hit a VIP milestone, but that would allow players to maintain VIP and "catch up" after any breaks from the game and would also solve for the inventory clutter issue mentioned. I don't have a problem with "x month of VIP earns you y reward" in general though. VIPs being rewarded for length of time as a VIP makes sense.

 

[Dandonk]

I've been trying to figure out what it is about the VIP program change that rubs me the wrong way. And the big one is that it feels like an obligation FOMO system. If I don't subscribe then I might suddenly be a year+ behind if month 18 has something I really want. If I don't log in every month and click the vendor then I fall behind. It's a psychological thing, where rather than feel excitement for it, it feels like it's a chore design where one is afraid that they'll be way behind if SSG offers something amazing in year 2 (or beyond). It's a video game I play for fun (and thus spend money on the thing I enjoy), having it feel like an obligation doesn't sit right with my idea of fun.

So much this. The system plays on anxiety and FOMO instead of excitement and fun.

 

[The Narc]

Try explaining that to a new/returning player. Things people see as being years off annoy many folks. Time gating is time gating, it doesn't matter if you think they're big deals or not. Plenty of folks base decisions off feels not numbers.

Yeah but rabidfox, past lives are time gated too whether or not folks can manage to put regular life on hold to catch up. But maybe you feel the same on that matter for that i have suggested to change the system to one life now gives the full 3 to help new players catch up. But of course that gets folks responding with put in the time that they put in and i can understand that point of view, as the same would apply for anyone that isnt loyal to the vip program from the get go. As for new players they have a long catch up for many things vip program, past lives, gear.

Just my opinion, but rabidfox you always debate from an open minded approach which i respect.

 

[rabidfox]

Yeah but rabidfox, past lives are time gated too whether or not folks can manage to put regular life on hold to catch up. But maybe you feel the same on that matter for that i have suggested to change the system to one life now gives the full 3 to help new players catch up. But of course that gets folks responding with put in the time that they put in and i can understand that point of view, as the same would apply for anyone that isnt loyal to the vip program from the get go. As for new players they have a long catch up for many things vip program, past lives, gear.

Just my opinion, but rabidfox you always debate from an open minded approach which i respect.

I like that they added archetypes as a side grind system where it doesn't require them for completionist. I think they should do future races the same way, so they count towards an existing race for racial completionist (similar to the way Welf/elf share but I'm also okay with new races brining their own racial AP/etc. because I enjoy getting those extras) so it caps out that grind. I think people can do a lot with low life characters that they don't currently do and they put too much emphasis on needing all past lives (that's a psychological thing that the game creates some folks thinking they need them, which is probably a bigger problem than the past lives themselves). I'm not opposed to speed ups for past lives myself (but I do find myself opposing some methods that get suggested); and I am an advocate of letting people know they can do a lot with the past lives they already have(even 1st lifers), that may be beyond the difficulties they currently run.

 

[Warsaga]

I don't disagree with you. Because of that, I don't want the VIP benefits to be must-have items or extended to the degree many in this thread have suggested. If a new player feel bad for not having the same loot drop chance, you can always offer to run with them and help them pull.


I suspect most who have played DDO for 2+ years loot enough chests for the extra 1% loot chance to make a difference. I also suspect if they had made it an extra 10%+ chance at loot, there would be an equal amount of players unhappy that they went full pay to win.


Would love all of this.


In the past, when items were automatically delivered to a character's inventory, people disliked the system because they accidentally logged onto the wrong character and receive the item they actually wanted on their main character. Many also disliked their inventory getting clogged up with these drops. I don't know if the tech would support a store coupon code being delivered to your game account email whenever you hit a VIP milestone, but that would allow players to maintain VIP and "catch up" after any breaks from the game and would also solve for the inventory clutter issue mentioned. I don't have a problem with "x month of VIP earns you y reward" in general though. VIPs being rewarded for length of time as a VIP makes sense.

They could potentially do something via a coupon - similar to how they used the Saltmarsh Coupon. Even still, its not like they don't have inventory items that grant you a world of stuff when you double-click them ie all the early expansions.

They have to revisit this delivery system and find some middle ground that will make players happy. Maybe with a 3-6-12 month sub they implement an autogrant feature that gives you the rewards you've accumulated automatically. What better display of loyalty can a player perform than to support the development upfront with a bulk purchase? What better way to reward that loyalty than giving that one slight advantage to those who do it?

There are a lot of problematic parts of this program, but this reward gating is like the cherry on top. More than a week of discussion and i don't think I've seen a single player argue in favor of it.

 

[The Narc]

They could potentially do something via a coupon - similar to how they used the Saltmarsh Coupon. Even still, its not like they don't have inventory items that grand you a world of stuff when you double-click them ie all the early expansions.

They have to revisit this delivery system and find some middle ground that will make players happy. Maybe with a 3-6-12 month sub they implement an autogrant feature that gives you the rewards you've accumulated automatically. What better display of loyalty can a player perform than to support the development upfront with a bulk purchase? What better way to reward that loyalty than giving that one slight advantage to those who do it?

There are a lot of problematic parts of this program, but this reward gating is like the cherry on top. More than a week of discussion and i don't think I've seen a single player argue in favor of it.

I agree a vip subber that is subbing for 12 months could just receive all 12 months at once and thereby be one of the most loyal VIP’s and this would be evident from the cosmetics being received early.

 

[Shear-buckler]

A far better system would be something like this.
Every month you sub you get an additional +1% VIP XP bonus (max +20 additonal)
Every 6 month you sub you get a +1% bonus to named loot drops (max +5%)
Every 12 months you sub you get +1 free chest reroll (max +2)
Every 10 months you sub your VIP DDO point bonus increases by 100 (max +300)
Every x month you access a new tier of cosmetics/mounts.

If you unsub you lose access to your bonuses and freeze your progression.

Catching up would be possible, individual rewards would be tangiable and long term VIP would be highly valuable.

 

[Spook]

VIP is inexpensive. AND SSG gives freebie DDOPoints that as a gamer you can use to buy ANYTHING in the DDO Store. There is a huge amount of freebie stuff in DDO (along with the pack codes that are occasionally given out) AND...you can play the entire game AND TR multiple times without ever spending a penny.

Sure the VIP++ benefits are...underwhelming but equally...does it really matter they messedup the VIP++ when the game potentially gives you pretty much everything free anyway?

The price isnt the problem. There is nothing in the current VIP package that I value. Price is only one factor of value - SSG seems to overvalue cosmetics in my opinion which is great if you love cosmetics and have the space for them meh if not.

I suspect the only people happy with VIP are the people who exclusively play DDO. I play multiple games and maintain multiple subscriptions and yet the game I have logged most hours into gets the least amount of my money.

 

[DDO Gaming]

I've been trying to figure out what it is about the VIP program change that rubs me the wrong way. And the big one is that it feels like an obligation FOMO system. If I don't subscribe then I might suddenly be a year+ behind if month 18 has something I really want. If I don't log in every month and click the vendor then I fall behind. It's a psychological thing, where rather than feel excitement for it, it feels like it's a chore design where one is afraid that they'll be way behind if SSG offers something amazing in year 2 (or beyond). It's a video game I play for fun (and thus spend money on the thing I enjoy), having it feel like an obligation doesn't sit right with my idea of fun.

I recall you saying you only VIP for HC season so I would propose you're getting riled by the chained nature of the reward system.
But equally...if you don;t value the chained reward system...why do you care how it works? This is the part where I get confused because I've seen this argument repeatedly:
1. I don't value the reward system
2. I don;t like the chained nature of the reward system

Guys why don;t you choose one of those options before making any further comment? I don;t value the rewards in the reward system so...IT DOESN;'T IMPACT MY DECISION TO VIP. That is the third option. Feel free to choose it, you won't suffer a heart-attack

 

[DDO Gaming]

I suspect the only people happy with VIP are the people who exclusively play DDO. I play multiple games and maintain multiple subscriptions and yet the game I have logged most hours into gets the least amount of my money.

You suspect incorrectly. I VIP because...I VALUE DDO, I think its a brilliant gaming system even with all its flaws.

 

[cdbd3rd]

I recall you saying you only VIP for HC season so I would propose you're getting riled by the chained nature of the reward system.
But equally...if you don;t value the chained reward system...why do you care how it works? This is the part where I get confused because I've seen this argument repeatedly:
1. I don't value the reward system
2. I don;t like the chained nature of the reward system

Guys why don;t you choose one of those options before making any further comment? I don;t value the rewards in the reward system so...IT DOESN;'T IMPACT MY DECISION TO VIP. That is the third option. Feel free to choose it, you won't suffer a heart-attack

Of the two you list, the Reward Chain system is the worst part of this. (tied with having to check in with an NPC every month)

 

[Shear-buckler]

I recall you saying you only VIP for HC season so I would propose you're getting riled by the chained nature of the reward system.
But equally...if you don;t value the chained reward system...why do you care how it works? This is the part where I get confused because I've seen this argument repeatedly:
1. I don't value the reward system
2. I don;t like the chained nature of the reward system

Guys why don;t you choose one of those options before making any further comment? I don;t value the rewards in the reward system so...IT DOESN;'T IMPACT MY DECISION TO VIP. That is the third option. Feel free to choose it, you won't suffer a heart-attack

Both the delivery system and the rewards are bad. People want the system not to be bad and want them to create a system that makes more people excited to spend more money on the game.

I don't see how that is confusing.

 

[rabidfox]

I recall you saying you only VIP for HC season so I would propose you're getting riled by the chained nature of the reward system.
But equally...if you don;t value the chained reward system...why do you care how it works? This is the part where I get confused because I've seen this argument repeatedly:
1. I don't value the reward system
2. I don;t like the chained nature of the reward system

Guys why don;t you choose one of those options before making any further comment? I don;t value the rewards in the reward system so...IT DOESN;'T IMPACT MY DECISION TO VIP. That is the third option. Feel free to choose it, you won't suffer a heart-attack

I lately only do VIP for HC and when I want the XP boost on live. I was waiting and hoping this new system would appeal to me. The current rewards listed for the 12 months aren't very compelling to me (there's a few things here and there but it's not really driving any desire in me). And the chained nature means if I don't run VIP and something shows up for month 13, 14, etc. that I want then I'll be very annoyed in the future. So I see issues with the system as a whole, it leaves me feel meh about the current offers and the potential to be annoyed by things down the line too. Why should I choose only 1 option to complain about? I'm free to voice my opinion on both my short term and long term concerns about the new system; they're not dynamically opposed to each other.